African Sword for ID and comment

Iliad · 5th December 2012, 05:54 AM

Good Morning/Evening all,
A collector friend is in process of dispersing his collection, and knowing that I have an incurable passion for collecting edged weapons, came to my home with a bag of goodies. I purchased 15!! SHE wanted to know how much I paid for them, SHE is planning to buy something for herself to an equal value! I keep telling her that I am not SPENDING money, I am INVESTING it! SHE is not convinced. Sigh
Anyway, here are pics of an African sword with a pierced blade; can anyone tell me what part of Africa it comes from?
Best,
Brian

Atlantia · 5th December 2012, 11:39 AM

Hi Brian,

This type was the subject of some discussion some time ago.
I'll link you to a couple of threads to see for yourself.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12918
There is a sword like yours in post 21.

Also:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2333&

Just to add that although the dagger forms are fairly common, the swords like yours don't seem to appear anywhere near as frequently.
The one you show seems to be in great condition and the pierced blade and Crocodile design are very attractive.
A nice example!

Best
Gene

Jim McDougall · 5th December 2012, 06:00 PM

Brian, you've done it again! Outstanding example of a distinct and indiginous sword of the Northern Sudan, which is typically associated with Dunqulah (Dongola) on the banks of the Nile. I have seen these in context of well provenanced arms of the Mahdist period and the Caliphate, as well as so indicated in other references. It seems the pierced decoration of the crocodile and other motif is characteristic.

These regions in ancient times were Nubia, and in later times actually became part of Egypt under Muhammed Ali Pasha in 1820 after his invasion of Sudan. It is generally held that the Mahdi himself actually was from these regions. During the Sudan campaigns Kitchener won a victory at Dongola prior to Omdurman in 1898. This may explain the presence of these among the kaskaras and various other arms captured in these campaigns.

It is most interesting that the rather unique pommel cap seems to appear on the weapons described in von Zonnefeld.While this would suggest a somewhat dramatic misidentification, I think it is important to remember that the host weapons which influenced these ethnographic forms often were carried through varying entrepots traversing vast segments of the trade routes. Therefore it is not too surprising to see unusual convergent similarities in remarkably distant cultural spheres.

The crocodile is key in totemic and symbolic character in Nilotic culture but most typically is seen in the hide being used on hilt grips and scabbards. It seems this pierced version is unique in its being a depiction rather than anatomical elements used. The familiar flared scabbard end of the kaskara mounts have long been thought to represent the crocodile head, but reception to that perception is not necessarily entirely accepted.

Nicely done Brian,
All the best,
Jim

Gene, excellent links to those earlier threads, and its great to see these archived resources used so perfectly, thank you! Looks like Lew pretty well nailed this ID in one of those threads!

ariel · 6th December 2012, 12:02 AM

Ha!
This is an excellent investment! SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED is well advised to admire your financial acumen.
Tell her this is just like buying stock in Apple 30 years ago. When you sell it, she will be able to buy herself the entire set of jewels from the British Royal Crown.

Good luck!

Iliad · 6th December 2012, 09:32 PM

Gentlemen,
Thank you for the replies. We will soon be taking delivery of a new electric stove (cooker) for the kitchen! Darn it, these swords and daggers have been more expensive than I anticipated!
Best,
Brian

Jim McDougall · 6th December 2012, 10:29 PM

glad gene and i could help brian.

Iain · 8th December 2012, 01:43 PM

I'm a bit late to the thread - but I just wanted to say thanks for sharing this piece with us.

I've seen this hilt style pop up from time to time and its always been a bit of a mystery.

The blade on this is fantastic and one of the prettiest I have seen.

Iliad · 9th December 2012, 04:24 AM

Thank you for the kind words. A little encouragement goes a long way.
Brian

kahnjar1 · 9th December 2012, 05:06 AM

Hi Brian.
Did not reply earlier as this is not my line, BUT.............. a VERY nice piece you have there. You are doing well by the look of things posted here.

I agree with you that these are an investment so long as the purchase price is sensible, BUT when Flora buys her "gift" to the value of yours, you must look upon that as an investment also.

I think you and I are luckly that we have "understanding" spouses!

Stu

Iain · 9th December 2012, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iliad

Thank you for the kind words. A little encouragement goes a long way.
Brian

Hi Brian, these are indeed an investment - although sometimes a cultural and historical one rather than purely a good idea monetarily.

The lizard is the best part of the piece you have shown here for me and really sets the piece apart from others of a similar hilt style. I think I've seen one before, but can't seem to find a picture to post.

Interesting motif as it seems to have been depicted in a similar fashion across a wide area of the Sahel - here's a lizard on a takouba scabbard of mine (Cameroon/Nigeria border region most likely) for comparison.

Cheers,

Iain

Lew · 9th December 2012, 03:16 PM

Nice find Brian

I think the hilt style is Hausa but I can't be sure. The reptile motif in the blade often comes from the Sudan around the white Nile area. I found two other smaller examples on the forum they have brass scabbards.

Jim McDougall · 9th December 2012, 08:24 PM

As I mentioned in post #3, paragraph 3, these hilts seem represented in some quite vast regional instances. I think the collectively used 'Hausa' classification may be misconstrued just as we have discussed on occasion regarding that classification as used in Briggs with the example of kaskara he has grouped in the takouba article. The Hausa, as Iain has shown on numerous occasions, were a keenly mercantile tribe and while they may have carried many of these weapons in thier wares it does not mean they necessarily used them as traditional arms.

Also as explained earlier (in #3) these swords are from Dongola (which astutely observed by Lew, is indeed in the White Nile regions, in fact on the banks) and are shown in collections and references as such, with the crocodile motif. This motif undoubtedly travelled the trans Saharan routes into Mali, where the familiar flared scabbard tip is seen on Manding sabres scabbards as well, so are another example of this westward diffusion.

Iain · 9th December 2012, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As I mentioned in post #3, paragraph 3, these hilts seem represented in some quite vast regional instances. I think the collectively used 'Hausa' classification may be misconstrued just as we have discussed on occasion regarding that classification as used in Briggs with the example of kaskara he has grouped in the takouba article. The Hausa, as Iain has shown on numerous occasions, were a keenly mercantile tribe and while they may have carried many of these weapons in thier wares it does not mean they necessarily used them as traditional arms.

Also as explained earlier (in #3) these swords are from Dongola (which astutely observed by Lew, is indeed in the White Nile regions, in fact on the banks) and are shown in collections and references as such, with the crocodile motif. This motif undoubtedly travelled the trans Saharan routes into Mali, where the familiar flared scabbard tip is seen on Manding sabres scabbards as well, so are another example of this westward diffusion.

Hi Jim,

If you have time I'd love to know the source for the Dongola attribution. Not that I doubt you - just curious.

I still think its a lizard - like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile_monitor. But of course its a bit subjective when you have a simple reptilian shape.

As for the hilt - I see no particular reason to attach any Hausa influence to it beyond a passing resemblance to the half arch shape of Hausa arm dagger pommels. The spike and the construction I think sets these fairly far apart.

Iain

Richard G · 12th December 2012, 05:23 PM

I'm in agreement with Iain, the crocodile\lizard motif seems very common on the artifacts of tribes living in the regions of the the great West African rivers (and probably elsewhere ) and I don't think is diagnostic of a Nilotic origin.
This sword still has a West rather than North or East African look to me, but I am very willing to be proved wrong.
Regards
Richard

Jim McDougall · 12th December 2012, 07:54 PM

Its great to see good discussion develop despite distractions, and some excellent observations have been made by Iain. It is quite true that a weapon such as this does seem quite of of context among the typical Nilotic forms, particularly of course the kaskara. It is further concerning when looking at the zoomorphic motif which I have noted as a crocodile, while clearly there are similar images much more stylized seen from motif from regions to the west such as the scabbard shown.
The pierced image on the sword Brian has posted seems to me much more like a crocodile, note the head shape, the tail and especially the cross hatch design on the back, presumably scales. The waran lizard, whose hides are also used, seems far less totemic than the crocodile, who has a long history of being a much feared and revered icon into ancient times in these regions.

While my reference to this type sword being from Dongola came from recollection from an important group of Sudanese arms on tour in 2002, with one of these with daggers and kaskara etc, I have now found one of the original references per Iains request.
In the 1896 revision of Lord Egertons "Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour" (Dover Press, 2002), #197, which is virtually identical to this example of Brians, and described as an Arab sword made in Dongola and used in the Sudan. It is described in the text on page 157 as having a hilt of ebony and ivory with pommel in crescent shape, the image of a crocodile in the blade. The geometrics on the blade vary from Brians, but the crocodile shape is the same as seen on other examples.
This is an interesting revision of Egertons first issue of this reference from 1880 on mostly Indian arms, now including the Sudan, clearly after the campaigns recently taking place, and precluding Omdurman in 1898.

These swords are seen in line drawing form in "Weapons: The Diagram Group", Ed. David Harding, p.36, #9, described as Arab sword from Dongola with crocodile in blade. In reviewing the bibliography there is no mention of Egerton though the list seems quite comprehensive and the only other book on African arms listed was "African Weapons" by Werner & Zirngible (1978). Going through that book there was no evidence of these type swords nor Hausa weapons with T handle hilt, nor crocodile motif, and since the description seems so close to Egertons I must presume Egerton is the source for the Diagram Group reference.

The design and motif is admittedly similar in gestalt to weapons across the entirety of the Sudan, which actually traverses the Sahara to the reaches of the forest kingdoms of the west and across the Sahelian belt. The trade routes which cross diffused materials and culture certainly played a key role in these kinds of anomalies, with the Hausa being prominant merchant traders becoming a prevalent dynamic among other tribes also participating.

Therefore, the classification of this sword as I have suggested is based somewhat objectively on having seen an example in Nilotic context and the references I have provided which are contemporary to the Sudanic campaigns and presumably by a considerably well informed and venerable author. The subjective opinions presented here are however well placed and reflect the broad scope of trade and diffusion in the regions we are studying...which is after all, exactly why we are here!!

Thank you guys,

Jim

Iain · 13th December 2012, 10:16 AM

Hi Jim and Richard,

Agree with the Dongola attribution after seeing the references, certainly no reason to suspect something else.

The Hausa do have a somewhat T hilted form, but is quite different in construction and the pommel is much fatter. Good example from David:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4343

As always, fantastic info from Jim and lots to read up on.

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2012, 05:13 PM

Thank you so much Iain, its great to have interactive discussion as here where we can exchange information at hand, observations and ideas. Its really not at all about who's right or wrong as sometimes seems suggested in threads, but assessing the most plausible identifications based on the evaluated evidence and examples.
While having some reasonably sound perspective established on this interesting sword form as being from Dongola, I am every much with you on still seeking more evidence and other corroboration, so as always...case profoundly not entirely closed.....just pending.

All the best,
Jim

9th December 2012, 03:16 PM	#11
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Nice find Brian I think the hilt style is Hausa but I can't be sure. The reptile motif in the blade often comes from the Sudan around the white Nile area. I found two other smaller examples on the forum they have brass scabbards. Attached Images

12th December 2012, 07:54 PM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Its great to see good discussion develop despite distractions, and some excellent observations have been made by Iain. It is quite true that a weapon such as this does seem quite of of context among the typical Nilotic forms, particularly of course the kaskara. It is further concerning when looking at the zoomorphic motif which I have noted as a crocodile, while clearly there are similar images much more stylized seen from motif from regions to the west such as the scabbard shown. The pierced image on the sword Brian has posted seems to me much more like a crocodile, note the head shape, the tail and especially the cross hatch design on the back, presumably scales. The waran lizard, whose hides are also used, seems far less totemic than the crocodile, who has a long history of being a much feared and revered icon into ancient times in these regions. While my reference to this type sword being from Dongola came from recollection from an important group of Sudanese arms on tour in 2002, with one of these with daggers and kaskara etc, I have now found one of the original references per Iains request. In the 1896 revision of Lord Egertons "Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour" (Dover Press, 2002), #197, which is virtually identical to this example of Brians, and described as an Arab sword made in Dongola and used in the Sudan. It is described in the text on page 157 as having a hilt of ebony and ivory with pommel in crescent shape, the image of a crocodile in the blade. The geometrics on the blade vary from Brians, but the crocodile shape is the same as seen on other examples. This is an interesting revision of Egertons first issue of this reference from 1880 on mostly Indian arms, now including the Sudan, clearly after the campaigns recently taking place, and precluding Omdurman in 1898. These swords are seen in line drawing form in "Weapons: The Diagram Group", Ed. David Harding, p.36, #9, described as Arab sword from Dongola with crocodile in blade. In reviewing the bibliography there is no mention of Egerton though the list seems quite comprehensive and the only other book on African arms listed was "African Weapons" by Werner & Zirngible (1978). Going through that book there was no evidence of these type swords nor Hausa weapons with T handle hilt, nor crocodile motif, and since the description seems so close to Egertons I must presume Egerton is the source for the Diagram Group reference. The design and motif is admittedly similar in gestalt to weapons across the entirety of the Sudan, which actually traverses the Sahara to the reaches of the forest kingdoms of the west and across the Sahelian belt. The trade routes which cross diffused materials and culture certainly played a key role in these kinds of anomalies, with the Hausa being prominant merchant traders becoming a prevalent dynamic among other tribes also participating. Therefore, the classification of this sword as I have suggested is based somewhat objectively on having seen an example in Nilotic context and the references I have provided which are contemporary to the Sudanic campaigns and presumably by a considerably well informed and venerable author. The subjective opinions presented here are however well placed and reflect the broad scope of trade and diffusion in the regions we are studying...which is after all, exactly why we are here!! Thank you guys, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 13th December 2012 at 05:03 PM.

5th December 2012, 05:54 AM	#1
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	African Sword for ID and comment Good Morning/Evening all, A collector friend is in process of dispersing his collection, and knowing that I have an incurable passion for collecting edged weapons, came to my home with a bag of goodies. I purchased 15!! SHE wanted to know how much I paid for them, SHE is planning to buy something for herself to an equal value! I keep telling her that I am not SPENDING money, I am INVESTING it! SHE is not convinced. Sigh Anyway, here are pics of an African sword with a pierced blade; can anyone tell me what part of Africa it comes from? Best, Brian Attached Images

5th December 2012, 11:39 AM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Brian, This type was the subject of some discussion some time ago. I'll link you to a couple of threads to see for yourself. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12918 There is a sword like yours in post 21. Also: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2333& Just to add that although the dagger forms are fairly common, the swords like yours don't seem to appear anywhere near as frequently. The one you show seems to be in great condition and the pierced blade and Crocodile design are very attractive. A nice example! Best Gene

5th December 2012, 06:00 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Brian, you've done it again! Outstanding example of a distinct and indiginous sword of the Northern Sudan, which is typically associated with Dunqulah (Dongola) on the banks of the Nile. I have seen these in context of well provenanced arms of the Mahdist period and the Caliphate, as well as so indicated in other references. It seems the pierced decoration of the crocodile and other motif is characteristic. These regions in ancient times were Nubia, and in later times actually became part of Egypt under Muhammed Ali Pasha in 1820 after his invasion of Sudan. It is generally held that the Mahdi himself actually was from these regions. During the Sudan campaigns Kitchener won a victory at Dongola prior to Omdurman in 1898. This may explain the presence of these among the kaskaras and various other arms captured in these campaigns. It is most interesting that the rather unique pommel cap seems to appear on the weapons described in von Zonnefeld.While this would suggest a somewhat dramatic misidentification, I think it is important to remember that the host weapons which influenced these ethnographic forms often were carried through varying entrepots traversing vast segments of the trade routes. Therefore it is not too surprising to see unusual convergent similarities in remarkably distant cultural spheres. The crocodile is key in totemic and symbolic character in Nilotic culture but most typically is seen in the hide being used on hilt grips and scabbards. It seems this pierced version is unique in its being a depiction rather than anatomical elements used. The familiar flared scabbard end of the kaskara mounts have long been thought to represent the crocodile head, but reception to that perception is not necessarily entirely accepted. Nicely done Brian, All the best, Jim Gene, excellent links to those earlier threads, and its great to see these archived resources used so perfectly, thank you! Looks like Lew pretty well nailed this ID in one of those threads! Last edited by Jim McDougall; 6th December 2012 at 02:01 AM.

6th December 2012, 12:02 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ha! This is an excellent investment! SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED is well advised to admire your financial acumen. Tell her this is just like buying stock in Apple 30 years ago. When you sell it, she will be able to buy herself the entire set of jewels from the British Royal Crown. Good luck!

6th December 2012, 09:32 PM	#5
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Gentlemen, Thank you for the replies. We will soon be taking delivery of a new electric stove (cooker) for the kitchen! Darn it, these swords and daggers have been more expensive than I anticipated! Best, Brian

6th December 2012, 10:29 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	glad gene and i could help brian.

8th December 2012, 01:43 PM	#7
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	I'm a bit late to the thread - but I just wanted to say thanks for sharing this piece with us. I've seen this hilt style pop up from time to time and its always been a bit of a mystery. The blade on this is fantastic and one of the prettiest I have seen.

9th December 2012, 04:24 AM	#8
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Thank you for the kind words. A little encouragement goes a long way. Brian

9th December 2012, 05:06 AM	#9
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi Brian. Did not reply earlier as this is not my line, BUT.............. a VERY nice piece you have there. You are doing well by the look of things posted here. I agree with you that these are an investment so long as the purchase price is sensible, BUT when Flora buys her "gift" to the value of yours, you must look upon that as an investment also. I think you and I are luckly that we have "understanding" spouses! Stu

9th December 2012, 08:24 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	As I mentioned in post #3, paragraph 3, these hilts seem represented in some quite vast regional instances. I think the collectively used 'Hausa' classification may be misconstrued just as we have discussed on occasion regarding that classification as used in Briggs with the example of kaskara he has grouped in the takouba article. The Hausa, as Iain has shown on numerous occasions, were a keenly mercantile tribe and while they may have carried many of these weapons in thier wares it does not mean they necessarily used them as traditional arms. Also as explained earlier (in #3) these swords are from Dongola (which astutely observed by Lew, is indeed in the White Nile regions, in fact on the banks) and are shown in collections and references as such, with the crocodile motif. This motif undoubtedly travelled the trans Saharan routes into Mali, where the familiar flared scabbard tip is seen on Manding sabres scabbards as well, so are another example of this westward diffusion.

12th December 2012, 05:23 PM	#14
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 405	I'm in agreement with Iain, the crocodile\lizard motif seems very common on the artifacts of tribes living in the regions of the the great West African rivers (and probably elsewhere ) and I don't think is diagnostic of a Nilotic origin. This sword still has a West rather than North or East African look to me, but I am very willing to be proved wrong. Regards Richard

13th December 2012, 10:16 AM	#16
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Jim and Richard, Agree with the Dongola attribution after seeing the references, certainly no reason to suspect something else. The Hausa do have a somewhat T hilted form, but is quite different in construction and the pommel is much fatter. Good example from David: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4343 As always, fantastic info from Jim and lots to read up on.

13th December 2012, 05:13 PM	#17
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Thank you so much Iain, its great to have interactive discussion as here where we can exchange information at hand, observations and ideas. Its really not at all about who's right or wrong as sometimes seems suggested in threads, but assessing the most plausible identifications based on the evaluated evidence and examples. While having some reasonably sound perspective established on this interesting sword form as being from Dongola, I am every much with you on still seeking more evidence and other corroboration, so as always...case profoundly not entirely closed.....just pending. All the best, Jim