My newest acquisition for comments

Stan S. · 7th November 2012, 02:29 AM

Recently purchased on ebay. Quite large for a kukri – it measures 21” overall. My guess is that it is a ceremonial/sacrificial sword. There are faint traces of inlaid foliage designs all over the blade but they can hardly be seen in pictures. I did some research while waiting for it to arrive in the mail and believe that a crowned guy and a snake depicted on the hilt symbolize Krishna emerging victorious from the throat of the demon Aghasura : http://www.iskconbangalore.org/killing-aghasura-demon.

All comments are welcome

kahnjar1 · 7th November 2012, 05:55 AM

Hi Stan,
I am no expert on these, but I believe that this is NOT a true Kukri, but is what is known as a Kukri Bladed sword, and comes from India.(There is no doubt a correct name for it)
Hopefully Berkley will see this and comment further.
A nice piece by the way.......

Regards Stu

spiral · 7th November 2012, 08:27 AM

These blades decoritive Indian kukris are generaly untempered, they were sold in the west by firms like Bannermans up to the 1930s for wall display, the hilt may possibley be a replacment, most were all steel.

Stu I guess your thinking of Sosson Patta?

Spiral

ALEX · 7th November 2012, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan S.

... a crowned guy and a snake depicted on the hilt symbolize Krishna emerging victorious from the throat of the demon Aghasura : http://www.iskconbangalore.org/killing-aghasura-demon.

All comments are welcome

I am sure some will find it "intriguing", but after taking closer look.... not sure I agree with "seriousness" of the depiction. The figure does not seem "proper" for Indian deity, the cast is relatively crude, I am not intrigued, sorry for the negative comment, just my opinion.

Stan S. · 7th November 2012, 03:15 PM

Yes, it is a kukri bladed short sword (or a tulwar hilted large kukri). Not a sosun pata but a different weapon entirely.

The blade actually appears to be of high quality steel. It is sharp and shows signs of use. The hilt may be a replacement but to me it looks quite elegantly cast despite being brass or bronze and not steel, which may or may nit indicate its age.

Atlantia · 7th November 2012, 04:07 PM

Although my first thought's were along the same lines as Jonathan's, there is perhaps one other small possibility.
I've seen processional/festival pieces with a-typical brass hilts.
In fact I know of a sousson pata with a much simpler brass hilt with small 'cymbal' type noise-makers built into it so that presumably it will make a 'clang clang clang' noise as it's carried if it's jiggled up and down and I've held that sword and the blade is fully 'live'.
I've seen pictures of them carried at the head of processions at festivals.

Beyond that possiblity I have to agree with my esteemed collegue Jonathan's assessment of age at around 1900-1930 and that it 'feels' more 'form' than 'function'.
The casting quality of the hilt would also fit with that: 'new' enough to not be of the finest 'antique' quality, old enough to still be quite good.
The Indian's have been making pieces to appeal to foreigners interested in thier rich culture and traditions for...... well, as long as anyone!

Either way, I think it's an attractive piece with genuine age.

Edit: I'm not saying this is a sousson pata of course because it's not.

kahnjar1 · 7th November 2012, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

These blades decoritive Indian kukris are generaly untempered, they were sold in the west by firms like Bannermans up to the 1930s for wall display, the hilt may possibley be a replacment, most were all steel.

Stu I guess your thinking of Sosson Patta?

Spiral

No not a Souson Patta. This type is shown in Tirri's book and described as I mentioned.
Stu

Atlantia · 7th November 2012, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

No not a Souson Patta.
Stu

LOL, at least we can all agree on that

spiral · 7th November 2012, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

No not a Souson Patta. This type is shown in Tirri's book and described as I mentioned.
Stu

Cheers Stu, Tirri book is a great coffee table book, but lots of his identifications & terms are rather dubious I find.

Its a non functing kukri, With a probably later tourist Tulwar type hilt. {I agree with Alex, re. the hilt...The Diety looks more like a pixie to my eye.

}

Gene to my eye that hilts not quality? Looks poor casting?

Heres a few kukris all of which are larger than the featured one. some with kora grips, For me only one of then is approaching sword size. {21.5 inch blade & 7 inch handle.}

But to me its just a kukri.

But each to there own.

Spiral

Atlantia · 7th November 2012, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Cheers Stu, Tirri book is a great coffee table book, but lots of his identifications & terms are rather dubious I find.

Its a non functing kukri, With a probably later tourist Tulwar type hilt. {I agree with Alex, re. the hilt...The Diety looks more like a pixie to my eye.

}

Gene to my eye that hilts not quality? Looks poor casting?

Heres a few kukris all of which are larger than the featured one. some with kora grips, For me only one of then is approaching sword size. {21.5 inch blade & 7 inch handle.}

But to me its just a kukri.

But each to there own.

Spiral

Hi mate,

'Pixie' lol, harsh!

Indian bronze casting often looks somewhat 'nieve' in style. This hilt isn't bad, it's just not 'great'.
As for the blade, it certainly does have that early 20thC look, similar to the ones we so often see from the bannerman cat's and the others that form part of the flood of early 20thC Indian wall hangers etc.

There must be pictures on the forum?
(goes off to find)

Atlantia · 7th November 2012, 06:23 PM

Similar blade, I'd date it to about the same period 1900-1930

Atlantia · 7th November 2012, 06:26 PM

And one with chiselled decoration:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=bannerman

Berkley · 7th November 2012, 07:04 PM

FWIW, in my experience the "Bannerman" blades are uniformly made of thin sheet metal, unlike a functional kukri whose spine is typically thicker than the blade at the edge bevel. The blade of Stan's item appears to be of more substantial thickness, although of similar shape. The presence of a kaudi (ritual notch) is highly uncommon among the "Bannerman" blades I have encountered - offhand I cannot remember one which had it.
Since rehilting seems to have been so common in Indian weapons, I think that the present casting may well not have been original to the blade. It's a very interesting and atypical piece.

spiral · 8th November 2012, 11:32 AM

Ahhh yes indeed Gene thats the type I meant, had a few of them {& the ingraved ones, Like Berk illustrates.} when I first started buying kukri.

Interesting Berk, I always assumed the slighty silvered ones were the same sources as the engraved ones, perhaps not Bannerman then.{I only have one of his catalouges, I must admit.} But in my humble opinion the silver wash pieces based on the several I have handled & many I know of are non functional decorative items & am sure were if not from Bannerman, were from a similar source.

Pictures of spine & any distal taper would be interesting.

Spiral

7th November 2012, 02:29 AM	#1
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	My newest acquisition for comments Recently purchased on ebay. Quite large for a kukri – it measures 21” overall. My guess is that it is a ceremonial/sacrificial sword. There are faint traces of inlaid foliage designs all over the blade but they can hardly be seen in pictures. I did some research while waiting for it to arrive in the mail and believe that a crowned guy and a snake depicted on the hilt symbolize Krishna emerging victorious from the throat of the demon Aghasura : http://www.iskconbangalore.org/killing-aghasura-demon. All comments are welcome Attached Images

7th November 2012, 04:07 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Although my first thought's were along the same lines as Jonathan's, there is perhaps one other small possibility. I've seen processional/festival pieces with a-typical brass hilts. In fact I know of a sousson pata with a much simpler brass hilt with small 'cymbal' type noise-makers built into it so that presumably it will make a 'clang clang clang' noise as it's carried if it's jiggled up and down and I've held that sword and the blade is fully 'live'. I've seen pictures of them carried at the head of processions at festivals. Beyond that possiblity I have to agree with my esteemed collegue Jonathan's assessment of age at around 1900-1930 and that it 'feels' more 'form' than 'function'. The casting quality of the hilt would also fit with that: 'new' enough to not be of the finest 'antique' quality, old enough to still be quite good. The Indian's have been making pieces to appeal to foreigners interested in thier rich culture and traditions for...... well, as long as anyone! Either way, I think it's an attractive piece with genuine age. Edit: I'm not saying this is a sousson pata of course because it's not. Last edited by Atlantia; 7th November 2012 at 05:44 PM.

7th November 2012, 06:23 PM	#11
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Similar blade, I'd date it to about the same period 1900-1930 Attached Images

7th November 2012, 07:04 PM	#13
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	FWIW, in my experience the "Bannerman" blades are uniformly made of thin sheet metal, unlike a functional kukri whose spine is typically thicker than the blade at the edge bevel. The blade of Stan's item appears to be of more substantial thickness, although of similar shape. The presence of a kaudi (ritual notch) is highly uncommon among the "Bannerman" blades I have encountered - offhand I cannot remember one which had it. Since rehilting seems to have been so common in Indian weapons, I think that the present casting may well not have been original to the blade. It's a very interesting and atypical piece. Attached Images

7th November 2012, 05:55 AM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi Stan, I am no expert on these, but I believe that this is NOT a true Kukri, but is what is known as a Kukri Bladed sword, and comes from India.(There is no doubt a correct name for it) Hopefully Berkley will see this and comment further. A nice piece by the way....... Regards Stu

7th November 2012, 08:27 AM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	These blades decoritive Indian kukris are generaly untempered, they were sold in the west by firms like Bannermans up to the 1930s for wall display, the hilt may possibley be a replacment, most were all steel. Stu I guess your thinking of Sosson Patta? Spiral

7th November 2012, 03:15 PM	#5
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Yes, it is a kukri bladed short sword (or a tulwar hilted large kukri). Not a sosun pata but a different weapon entirely. The blade actually appears to be of high quality steel. It is sharp and shows signs of use. The hilt may be a replacement but to me it looks quite elegantly cast despite being brass or bronze and not steel, which may or may nit indicate its age.

7th November 2012, 06:26 PM	#12
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	And one with chiselled decoration: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=bannerman

8th November 2012, 11:32 AM	#14
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Ahhh yes indeed Gene thats the type I meant, had a few of them {& the ingraved ones, Like Berk illustrates.} when I first started buying kukri. Interesting Berk, I always assumed the slighty silvered ones were the same sources as the engraved ones, perhaps not Bannerman then.{I only have one of his catalouges, I must admit.} But in my humble opinion the silver wash pieces based on the several I have handled & many I know of are non functional decorative items & am sure were if not from Bannerman, were from a similar source. Pictures of spine & any distal taper would be interesting. Spiral