Tool or dagger?

[karloj]

Hello
I am new in this very interesting forum.
I would be grateful if someone could identify this "dagger".
Sadly (in my opinion) It has been polished heavily. I cant myself identify it any way. I don't know it's origin or age.

It is about 39 cm long. The blade is not sharp. You could not cut anything (but maybe butter) with it. In the blade there is, in the same place counting from the tip of the blade, two marks and in the every facet is one dent.
It might not be very interesting in any respect, but I am very curious to hear what could be four dents and two marks in the blade.

Thank you for in advance for your opinins
Jussi

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, Jussi .
You have failed to upload the pictures .

[karloj]

Hope it works

[fernando]

Interesting piece. Can we call this a stiletto ?
With this type of blade (three faced?), the edges don't need to be sharp. It is sufficiently lethal when you thrust it.

[Atlantia]

Hi Karloj
Welcome to the forums.
This interesting piece looks like it may have been a sharpening 'steel' to me.

I've seen antique examples with round steels 'blades', facetted blades and blades of crosss section similar to yours.
Often they became worn over time and sometimes they get 'made over'

Does it have a hard temper?

[Atlantia]

Have a look here:
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/...p?f=41&t=24869

It's suprising how 'dagger like' some can be. Just a light reworking and hey presto!

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by karloj

Hello
I am new in this very interesting forum.
I would be grateful if someone could identify this "dagger".
Sadly (in my opinion) It has been polished heavily. I cant myself identify it any way. I don't know it's origin or age.

It is about 39 cm long. The blade is not sharp. You could not cut anything (but maybe butter) with it. In the blade there is, in the same place counting from the tip of the blade, two marks and in the every facet is one dent.
It might not be very interesting in any respect, but I am very curious to hear what could be four dents and two marks in the blade.

Thank you for in advance for your opinins
Jussi

This is definitely a dagger and also very interesting one.
the so called baluster-turned ricasso is seen on stilettos of Italian origin at the end of the 16th century.(fe knifes dagger and bayonets T.Capwell p 142)
However, this dagger has a more german appeal due to the bulky iron grip and small thumb guard which is missing here. (fe A&A of the knights and Landsknechts p224, 230)
This dagger can be dated around the middle of the 16th century.

the marks and the dents at the blade can be a measuring device, such as a forerunner of all steel gunners stiletto with one side of the blade numbered , used for determining the weight / size of a cannonball.



best,

[theswordcollector]

Originally Posted by fernando

Welcome to the forum, Jussi .
You have failed to upload the pictures .

Hi this is a knife sharpening tool for a butcher or kitchen tool . I am 100% postive .It is not a dagger. They are not commonly seen so people mistake
them for daggers but it is an early kitchen tool. Take care

[karloj]

Greetings
Thank you very much fernando, Atlantia, cornelistromp and theswordcollector.

It seems, that Atlantia and theswordcollector think I's a sharpening steel.

Am I right, and what Atlantia also asked me, that the key feature in sharpening steel is that it is very hard ? The steel have to be very high carbon steel to quench it very hard. The surface of the sharpening tool, grooved or slick, has to be very hard. I think (If I have understood right, that quenching is making steel hard and tempering is making steel for instance more flexible after quenching) sharpening steel is not tempered at all, so it is very hard and it breaks quite easily.

Well, I do not have any means to measure hardness of the blade, Rockwell or any else scale.

So, If it is sharpening steel, the marks in the blade had to be engraved or chiseled before the quenching the blade. There is no any factory markings or any stamped marks in the blade. These engraved marks look quite primitive to me and I don't believe, that these are any factory made. Also there is many scratches in the blade, so I don't think that the surface of the blade is exceptionally hard.

Or if it is a fake, it must be tempered again in that degree that it is soft enough to grind and engrave it. Well, it's maybe easier to do a new dagger altogether and add also the thumb guard which is missing.

Thank you especially cornelistromp from putting reference in your message. It was very thrilling to read your learned opinion.

Atlantia for idea and links concerning sharpening steel. That idea I must think carefully.

I would like to ask theswordcollector, if he is 100% sure that it is sharpening steel, what are the grounds for such strong opinion? It would be very nice to get 100% correct identification.

Fernando, the blades crosscut is actually diamant.

Jussi

Post scriptum. I ask you not to pay too much attention to my English. My original language is Finnish and I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by karloj

... Fernando, the blades crosscut is actually diamant...

Which makes it (even) more probable to be a stiletto dagger !!

Originally Posted by karloj

... I hope you understand what I am trying to say... [/I]

Completely; my english is not better .

[Atlantia]

If it is a sharpening steel, diamond section and multi-faced blades are not uncommon.
The shape and large size of this piece suggest that origin to me.
But I could be wrong. It appears to have been extensively reworked/cleaned

[Gavin Nugent]

To my eye it is a cut down small sword....

[karloj]

Originally Posted by freebooter

To my eye it is a cut down small sword....

Hello freebooter

I think that it is too small to be cut down small sword.
Here is for the comparison these two. The sword is Swedish infantry officers sword pattern 1790.

I found this picture from the net. It is part of larger picture so it is very poor quality. The text didn't mentioned it other but that is about 15th or 16th century. I don't put link, because it is in antique traders page.

Of course it's not identical, but some features are alike. And, Atlantia, it is possible, that it is a sharpening steel but it is also possible that it is not. It is possible, that it's not either, but something else altogether. That is what I am doing, searching for proof for identification.

[cornelistromp]

In addition, and to clarify post# 7, herewith pictures of some 15/16th century style characteristics that also can be seen on the dagger under discussion;

a stiff flat diamond shaped blade, flat or hollow grounded faces.
a rhombus rectangle on the gripcap or plate in case of a rondel dager, under the peened tang
a bulky steel grip
a small thumbguard (missing!)
a (baluster) shaped ricasso

unfortunately length cannot be a criterion, the length of 16th century stilettos can range from around 25cm to just under 50cm allover.

best,

[karloj]

Thank you very much cornelistromp. You truly are a gentlemen and a scholar.

I think it is safe to say, that this is what you said in your first message. This your second message and the pictures are very clarifying.

Now that I see the thumb guard which you wrote earlier, it has just the place in the dagger (I think it's OK to call it a dagger now) and where it has broken off.

The marks are a little bit annoying, but what you said about being gunners marks or something is maybe closest we can ever get.

I enclose some pictures.
Thank you also fernando, Atlantia, freebooter and theswordcollector to taking part to my quest.