Old Luzon Kris

Robert · 21st August 2012, 01:21 AM

I took a chance on a really bad picture on epray and I am very happy to say that this is what arrived. The pictures are after a cleaning as this looked to have been stored in a wet basement for years. I believe that this would date to the late 19th century. The swords total length is 29-3/4 inches with a 24-1/2 inch blade. The blade is 1-3/4 inches wide and 1/4 inch thick at the hilt. The grip is made of horn with brass fittings.
I am not sure if this sword originally had a guard or not "as not all of these did" or if the grip has just shrunk in length from age. Either way, it is a very nice sword and I am quite happy that I took the chance in acquiring it. Any comments that anyone would like to make on this would be very welcome.

Robert

Battara · 21st August 2012, 02:09 AM

Interesting piece. Long. Most of these I have seen are from Ilocos Norte, which is on the east side of Luzon.

Normally I do see these with cross guards of some kind.

Robert · 21st August 2012, 02:26 AM

Hello Jose, Yes this is one of the longest one of this style that I have ever seen. I am sure that there are ones that are longer but as yet I haven't seen them. Like you, most of these that I have seen have had guards but I have seen a few that did not and had no space at all for a guard to have ever been fit in between the hilt and blade. This one more than likely did have one at some point in time but it was either broken or if made of steel it could have just rusted away.

Robert

P.S.
If I remember right there was a single edged sword with a wavy blade that I think was longer than this in the History Of Steel Exhibit.

Robert · 21st August 2012, 10:47 PM

I was wondering if anyone here has any references to or pictures of any Luzon kris of this length or longer and if so could you post pictures or links? I would be very interested in seeing them as I have never seen one of this length before. I really wish that the scabbard for this one had survived but it was more than likely made of leather and over the years just rotted away. The half wave sword below at 27-1/2 inches total length was the longest one in my collection until now. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Robert

VVV · 21st August 2012, 11:06 PM

Nice catch!!!

I also suspect that it had a (maybe D-) guard.
Here is one of mine that is close as a reference - 28 inches long.

Atlantia · 21st August 2012, 11:09 PM

I think it's an absolute beauty Robert!
In the pictures it doesn't seem to have much room for a crossguard? Does it look like there is anything missing to you?
The quality of the blade looks very good and it's certainly an impressive length! (ooo-eeer)
Congrats indeed!!!!!

Atlantia · 21st August 2012, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Nice catch!!!

I also suspect that it had a (maybe D-) guard.
Here is one of mine that is close as a reference - 28 inches long.

Ahh, that would fit!
And be relatively easy to re-manufacture

Robert · 22nd August 2012, 12:05 AM

Great reference piece Michael and thank you for posting it for comparison. Because there is no evidence of there ever being anything attached at the butt end of the hilt I think that if my example originally had a guard that it might have either been an S-guard, a straight guard or possibly a small oval guard. As Gene pointed out, there is not much room for a guard between the blade and hilt. That and there is no evidence of any wear on the exposed bit of the tang or on the front edge of the ferrule that I would expect to find if the guard was made from steel of any thickness. Then again if the guard was of brass or copper and was lost to being broken, I would have expected it to have at least left some evidence of existing such as a bend or gouge to the brass ferrule or damage to the hilt material itself. The only other option would be that it was one of the very thin steel guards that you see on quite a few examples of these swords that like I suggested before just rusted away over the years. These are just my thoughts on this and whether of not they have any validity remains to be seen. I would again like to thank both you and Gene for your kind words and thoughts on this.

Regards,
Robert

Ferguson · 22nd August 2012, 12:22 AM

Nice piece Robert! I'm wondering if they made a lot of these type pieces without guards. I've got a much smaller version of a similar form as shown on this thread.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9597

Steve

Robert · 22nd August 2012, 01:16 AM

Hello Steve, Yeah I've always been envious of that dagger of yours. As far as not ever having a guard goes I have seen more than one of these that have no space for one or evidence of ever having one. I brought that up in my first post on this sword but I agree with the fact that most did. I am just trying to figure out if this particular one ever did. When you are tired of looking at that wonderful dagger of yours "or any of the others you have" just send it my way and I promise that I will give it a good home with lots of its brothers to keep it company.

Regards,
Robert

P.S.
One other thing that I was going to mention on this is that on all of the examples that I have seen that did not look to have ever had a guard the blade ends in a wave where it meets the hilt instead of being straight like on Michaels example and the one half wave that I have posted above.

VANDOO · 25th August 2012, 06:46 AM

I FOUND A KRIS ALMOST AS LARGE AS YOURS IN A OLD POST WHILE LOOKING FOR A MISSING POST WHICH IS STILL MISSING. I WAS GOING TO TRANSFER THE PICTURE HERE BUT MY C-PUTER REFUZES TO COOPERATE. SEARCH ARCHIVES FOR POST "KRIS SWORD VARIATIONS" POSTED 4/06/2004. THERE ARE TWO PICTURES ONE WITH A YARD STICK.

David · 25th August 2012, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I FOUND A KRIS ALMOST AS LARGE AS YOURS IN A OLD POST WHILE LOOKING FOR A MISSING POST WHICH IS STILL MISSING. I WAS GOING TO TRANSFER THE PICTURE HERE BUT MY C-PUTER REFUZES TO COOPERATE. SEARCH ARCHIVES FOR POST "KRIS SWORD VARIATIONS" POSTED 4/06/2004. THERE ARE TWO PICTURES ONE WITH A YARD STICK.

Barry, why don't you just copy & paste the link to the thread.

Robert · 25th August 2012, 04:53 PM

I believe that I've found the picture Barry was referring to. If I am reading the yard stick correctly it is actually longer than the one that I have posted.

It is quite a beautiful example and I am very envious of its owner. I have a dagger that matches it very nicely and would make a great pair. Thank you for the heads up on this Barry. Because it requires a separate search from the rest of the forum I seldom remember about it and end up missing out on all the great items and information listed in the old UBB forum. Here is a link to Barry's original thread that the below picture is from. Again my thanks for pointing this out to me. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001969.html

Regards,
Robert

Ian · 31st May 2015, 02:27 PM

In going back over some old threads, I found this one on Luzon kris--which represent one form of Spanish colonial sword that has received little attention. While flambé blades have been well recognized among European swords, the "Luzon kris" seems more directly related to the Moro kris than a European ancestor.

Here is an example from the History of Steel exhibition held several years ago in Macao. OAL = 31.25 inches (79.4 cm)

Ian.

Battara · 31st May 2015, 06:52 PM

"Your are correct, sir!" There were contacts with and I think even a colony of Moros in Ilokos where most of these come from in the north.

Ian · 1st June 2015, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

"Your are correct, sir!" There were contacts with and I think even a colony of Moros in Ilokos where most of these come from in the north.

Thanks Jose. Interesting factoid. Did not know about Moros in Luzon during the 19th-20th C.

Ian.

Battara · 1st June 2015, 02:54 AM

Well by that time the Spanish had already kicked the Moros out, but some influence remained, like this type of wavy blade.

Robert · 1st June 2015, 05:39 AM

Hello Ian, I happy to see this thread brought back into the light of day again. If I remember correctly the sword you posted is not only one of the best examples of this style that I have ever seen, but is also unusual in the way the blade was sharpened. If memory serves me correctly this piece is quite unique in that the blade is single edged with only the lower edge being sharpened. All of the other examples that I have in my personal collection (swords and daggers) as well as all the others I have ever seen photos of or personally handled have always had both edges of their blades sharpened. I have alway regretted not having the funds to purchase this with for my own collection the one time that it was being offered for sale.

Jose, Thank you very much for the new information concerning a colony of Moros living in Ilocos. Being that this is something I have never heard of until now do you by chance have any other information on where exactly they were located or possibly the time frame of when they lived there?

Best,
Robert

21st August 2012, 01:21 AM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Old Luzon Kris I took a chance on a really bad picture on epray and I am very happy to say that this is what arrived. The pictures are after a cleaning as this looked to have been stored in a wet basement for years. I believe that this would date to the late 19th century. The swords total length is 29-3/4 inches with a 24-1/2 inch blade. The blade is 1-3/4 inches wide and 1/4 inch thick at the hilt. The grip is made of horn with brass fittings. I am not sure if this sword originally had a guard or not "as not all of these did" or if the grip has just shrunk in length from age. Either way, it is a very nice sword and I am quite happy that I took the chance in acquiring it. Any comments that anyone would like to make on this would be very welcome. Robert Attached Images

21st August 2012, 02:26 AM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Jose, Yes this is one of the longest one of this style that I have ever seen. I am sure that there are ones that are longer but as yet I haven't seen them. Like you, most of these that I have seen have had guards but I have seen a few that did not and had no space at all for a guard to have ever been fit in between the hilt and blade. This one more than likely did have one at some point in time but it was either broken or if made of steel it could have just rusted away. Robert P.S. If I remember right there was a single edged sword with a wavy blade that I think was longer than this in the History Of Steel Exhibit. Last edited by Robert Coleman; 21st August 2012 at 04:31 AM.

21st August 2012, 10:47 PM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I was wondering if anyone here has any references to or pictures of any Luzon kris of this length or longer and if so could you post pictures or links? I would be very interested in seeing them as I have never seen one of this length before. I really wish that the scabbard for this one had survived but it was more than likely made of leather and over the years just rotted away. The half wave sword below at 27-1/2 inches total length was the longest one in my collection until now. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Robert Attached Images

21st August 2012, 11:06 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Nice catch!!! I also suspect that it had a (maybe D-) guard. Here is one of mine that is close as a reference - 28 inches long. Attached Images

25th August 2012, 04:53 PM	#13
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I believe that I've found the picture Barry was referring to. If I am reading the yard stick correctly it is actually longer than the one that I have posted. It is quite a beautiful example and I am very envious of its owner. I have a dagger that matches it very nicely and would make a great pair. Thank you for the heads up on this Barry. Because it requires a separate search from the rest of the forum I seldom remember about it and end up missing out on all the great items and information listed in the old UBB forum. Here is a link to Barry's original thread that the below picture is from. Again my thanks for pointing this out to me. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001969.html Regards, Robert Attached Images

21st August 2012, 02:09 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Interesting piece. Long. Most of these I have seen are from Ilocos Norte, which is on the east side of Luzon. Normally I do see these with cross guards of some kind.

21st August 2012, 11:09 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I think it's an absolute beauty Robert! In the pictures it doesn't seem to have much room for a crossguard? Does it look like there is anything missing to you? The quality of the blade looks very good and it's certainly an impressive length! (ooo-eeer) Congrats indeed!!!!!

22nd August 2012, 12:05 AM	#8
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Great reference piece Michael and thank you for posting it for comparison. Because there is no evidence of there ever being anything attached at the butt end of the hilt I think that if my example originally had a guard that it might have either been an S-guard, a straight guard or possibly a small oval guard. As Gene pointed out, there is not much room for a guard between the blade and hilt. That and there is no evidence of any wear on the exposed bit of the tang or on the front edge of the ferrule that I would expect to find if the guard was made from steel of any thickness. Then again if the guard was of brass or copper and was lost to being broken, I would have expected it to have at least left some evidence of existing such as a bend or gouge to the brass ferrule or damage to the hilt material itself. The only other option would be that it was one of the very thin steel guards that you see on quite a few examples of these swords that like I suggested before just rusted away over the years. These are just my thoughts on this and whether of not they have any validity remains to be seen. I would again like to thank both you and Gene for your kind words and thoughts on this. Regards, Robert

22nd August 2012, 12:22 AM	#9
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Nice piece Robert! I'm wondering if they made a lot of these type pieces without guards. I've got a much smaller version of a similar form as shown on this thread. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9597 Steve

22nd August 2012, 01:16 AM	#10
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Steve, Yeah I've always been envious of that dagger of yours. As far as not ever having a guard goes I have seen more than one of these that have no space for one or evidence of ever having one. I brought that up in my first post on this sword but I agree with the fact that most did. I am just trying to figure out if this particular one ever did. When you are tired of looking at that wonderful dagger of yours "or any of the others you have" just send it my way and I promise that I will give it a good home with lots of its brothers to keep it company. Regards, Robert P.S. One other thing that I was going to mention on this is that on all of the examples that I have seen that did not look to have ever had a guard the blade ends in a wave where it meets the hilt instead of being straight like on Michaels example and the one half wave that I have posted above.

25th August 2012, 06:46 AM	#11
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I FOUND A KRIS ALMOST AS LARGE AS YOURS IN A OLD POST WHILE LOOKING FOR A MISSING POST WHICH IS STILL MISSING. I WAS GOING TO TRANSFER THE PICTURE HERE BUT MY C-PUTER REFUZES TO COOPERATE. SEARCH ARCHIVES FOR POST "KRIS SWORD VARIATIONS" POSTED 4/06/2004. THERE ARE TWO PICTURES ONE WITH A YARD STICK.

31st May 2015, 02:27 PM	#14
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	In going back over some old threads, I found this one on Luzon kris--which represent one form of Spanish colonial sword that has received little attention. While flambé blades have been well recognized among European swords, the "Luzon kris" seems more directly related to the Moro kris than a European ancestor. Here is an example from the History of Steel exhibition held several years ago in Macao. OAL = 31.25 inches (79.4 cm) Ian. Attached Images

31st May 2015, 06:52 PM	#15
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	"Your are correct, sir!" There were contacts with and I think even a colony of Moros in Ilokos where most of these come from in the north.

1st June 2015, 02:54 AM	#17
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Well by that time the Spanish had already kicked the Moros out, but some influence remained, like this type of wavy blade.

1st June 2015, 05:39 AM	#18
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Ian, I happy to see this thread brought back into the light of day again. If I remember correctly the sword you posted is not only one of the best examples of this style that I have ever seen, but is also unusual in the way the blade was sharpened. If memory serves me correctly this piece is quite unique in that the blade is single edged with only the lower edge being sharpened. All of the other examples that I have in my personal collection (swords and daggers) as well as all the others I have ever seen photos of or personally handled have always had both edges of their blades sharpened. I have alway regretted not having the funds to purchase this with for my own collection the one time that it was being offered for sale. Jose, Thank you very much for the new information concerning a colony of Moros living in Ilocos. Being that this is something I have never heard of until now do you by chance have any other information on where exactly they were located or possibly the time frame of when they lived there? Best, Robert