Two Arab ex-Enfield Pattern 1853 guns

[Mefidk]

Following on from a previous thread where we discussed the amount of guns that were made by recycling British army gun parts, here are a couple that basically recycled the whole gun. Hope you like them.

These are as they arrived to me, totally untouched, hence the rust which I, and the other new co-owner will no doubt remove as soon as we can. The guns started out life as Enfield P53 rifles but ended up in a Swedish diplomat's house in Saudi Arabia before coming to me. The stocks have been condiderably modified, especially the more decorated gun and the barrels have been bored out smooth. I do think the the barrels are original though because they are the regulation 39 inches, correct calibre and have all the proof marks and army stamps still visible. Ramrods are the originals as are trigger guards and locks. One lock is a Tower lock, Crown VR and dated 1855, the other needs cleaning before we can see if there is legible date, but it looks as though its got the crown at least, and I believe is the original lock.
The original guns should have had a ladder sight but these have been removed and a more traditional pinhole sight has been added.

Looks to me like the silver work is done by the same person, but not at the same time - or someone tried to copy the pattern on to the second gun, but stopped decorating once they got to the wood work. The gun certainly has been used though, so it was not that they just never finished and packed the gun away. Interesting that on this one the enlarged butt end is actually part of the old stock where they have cut the rest of the wood away. On the more decorated gun the enlargement is separate, and decorated with studs, a back plate, and what looks like animal teeth.



Chris

[colin henshaw]

Most interesting Chris, thanks for posting. I like these cross-cultural type objects.

Regards.

[kahnjar1]

Not teeth but likely claws---either animal or bird. I once owned a Khyber Jezail which also had these.
Nice guns by the way and I particularly like the more decorated one. In respect of "recycled" British guns and gun parts, it has to be remembered that the British held sway over a very large part of the Middle East and the Indian continent, and the quantity of guns around must have been huge.

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely fascinating examples, and I think these now tribally associated guns are exciting as they were in use over such a long time, even into recent times. As always I am ever interested in the motifs and potential symbolism imbued in the decoration of these. I wonder if the 'claw' representation might be related to the talons of the falcon, I think a well established predator bird in the Arab world.
I am interested in the tacks used in motif as well, and while definitely not suggesting any connection, cannot help noticing the similarity to the decoration found on American Indian guns of the 19th century. I would presume these may be 'furniture' type tacks which were present in trade and 'settler' type situations. It seems that the cross was convergently present in many circumstances and often represents the four cardinal directions, a tribal representation of universal power.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Absolutely fascinating examples, and I think these now tribally associated guns are exciting as they were in use over such a long time, even into recent times. As always I am ever interested in the motifs and potential symbolism imbued in the decoration of these. I wonder if the 'claw' representation might be related to the talons of the falcon, I think a well established predator bird in the Arab world.
I am interested in the tacks used in motif as well, and while definitely not suggesting any connection, cannot help noticing the similarity to the decoration found on American Indian guns of the 19th century. I would presume these may be 'furniture' type tacks which were present in trade and 'settler' type situations. It seems that the cross was convergently present in many circumstances and often represents the four cardinal directions, a tribal representation of universal power.

Salaams Jim, Tacks were used as ballast in Victorian times on ships bound for India and adorn many artefacts such as chests of furniture ... and in this case guns. Amazing claws in the butt !
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Jim McDougall]

Ouch!!! claws in the butt!!
Im was hoping you would come in on this Ibrahiim!
Great note on the use of these materials as ballast. Interestingly the enormous volume of the glass beads which became trademark items in American Indian crafts were also ballast material.This again seems to represent the profound use of these otherwise common items from utility to decoration.
I wonder if there are characteristic motif in the decorative bands which might suggest any regional affinity?
Also, were there regions in Arabia which may have had more access to British guns than others? I have always been under the impression that flintlocks and even matchlocks were more prevalent in the more remote Bedouin tribes due to accessibility of ammunition and supplies. As we have discussed, trade from the Indian coastal regions in Sind brought considerable trade weapons to Muscat..perhaps obsolete British guns as well?

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ouch!!! claws in the butt!!
Im was hoping you would come in on this Ibrahiim!
Great note on the use of these materials as ballast. Interestingly the enormous volume of the glass beads which became trademark items in American Indian crafts were also ballast material.This again seems to represent the profound use of these otherwise common items from utility to decoration.
I wonder if there are characteristic motif in the decorative bands which might suggest any regional affinity?
Also, were there regions in Arabia which may have had more access to British guns than others? I have always been under the impression that flintlocks and even matchlocks were more prevalent in the more remote Bedouin tribes due to accessibility of ammunition and supplies. As we have discussed, trade from the Indian coastal regions in Sind brought considerable trade weapons to Muscat..perhaps obsolete British guns as well?

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ I think you are correct on all counts however it is a fact that the old and tested systems ruled longest as put by the late Anthony North in his Islamic Arms treatise .. For that reason we still see a lot of abu futtila (the one with the match) matchlock gun barrels though there are a lot of Martini Henrys and Enfields some in very good order... favoured by Palace guards and the various official Muscat gendarmeries often under British control in the late 19th C. The Bedouin preferred Martini Henrys; barrels cut back about a foot removing nicely the bulky bayonet fitting whilst retaining the accuracy(amazingly) and lessening the weight! Ajman and Muscat star highly as import points; therefor in addition to weapons entering the market as palace guards weapons became obsolete(ie their old weapons were sold by the authorities to the souk) Muscat also attracted Martini Henrys, Enfields similar to the ones at thread and the later 303 black powder versions and other marks from all points of the compass.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Ibrahiim, excellent information which gives good perspective on appreciating these ruggedly outstanding guns!

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much Ibrahiim, excellent information which gives good perspective on appreciating these ruggedly outstanding guns!

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ Interesting guns. The pin patterns may have some meaning to the originator and certainly on furniture chests there are set patterns so why not on guns?.. I feel that the pins may represent the round ball ammunition. I noticed that on the black weapon forward of the trigger there is a plate resembling a coat of arms and except from this that the two weapons have almost identical markings from the trigger forward. I note a strengthener of different material on the same weapon behind the trigger wrapped round the narrow part of the Butt as it has split previously.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Mefidk]

Not sure if it helps your discussion of the patterns and their significance, but here are a couple of pictures of the patterns you could not see before. One which is duplicated on all barrel bands on both guns, the other is forward of the trigger guard. The third picture is the non-studded gun same location - the best angle I have. If we need more pictures we will have to ask the new owner.

Chris

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Mefidk

Not sure if it helps your discussion of the patterns and their significance, but here are a couple of pictures of the patterns you could not see before. One which is duplicated on all barrel bands on both guns, the other is forward of the trigger guard. The third picture is the non-studded gun same location - the best angle I have. If we need more pictures we will have to ask the new owner.

Chris

Salaams Mefidk ~ I have to say Im about out of ammo at this point ! Interesting thread thanks..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Mefidk]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Mefidk ~ I have to say Im about out of ammo at this point ! Interesting thread thanks..

Salaams Ibrahiim - well it was worth a shot
Chris

[rickystl]

Hello all. Entering this Thread a little late. Full disclosure: I am the new owner of the less decorated gun. And I feel fortunate to have been able to purchase it. These Saudi - Bedouin decorated guns are often hard to come by. Especially when the gun started out as a complete M1853 Enfield. As mentioned above, I am hard pressed to think of a percussion musket more widely used throughout the world as the British Enfield.
The gun is on it's way to my house as I write this. Can't wait to see it.
Mefidk: Feel free to Post any and all photos desired on the Forum.
Apparently, both of these guns have smooth bores vs the .577 rifled barrel. I believe the British did make some M1853 style barrels in smooth bore sent to the Indian continent? But I will try to verify this - maybe on the European Forum? I also seem to recall reading that many barrels in the Eastern continent were re-bored to smooth. The barrels on both of these guns due look genuine British with the exception of the replaced rear sight to suite local tastes. Even the ramrods look correct.
Mefidk: Thanks again for your willingness to part with one. I will try to reciprocate at some future point. Rick.

[adrian]

Hi Rick yes the British made the Pattern 1858 & then the Pattern 1859 as smoothbore Enfield "Rifles" for service in India. They decided, after the Mutiny, to always keep the arms of their Indian troops one generation behind those arms of the regular army.
Adrian

[Mefidk]

Hi Adrian
That is very interesting, thanks for coming in on this. I've heard this mentioned before. I guess that there may be more to the story in this case though, since this lock on one gun at least dates to before the Indian mutiny (1855 contra 1857). Of course the lock may have been replaced by an earlier one, or maybe there were smooth bore P53s in circulation too. I guess a third possibility could be that rifled early Enfields could have been bored smooth for reissue (if that is technically possible ).
Between the two guns we have quite a selection of military stamps on he barrels. I wonder if you know if there is any way to use these stamps to separate colonial issue guns from the regular army, or provide hints to their history?
Chris

[adrian]

The British Govt did not smooth bore rifled guns, so if these are ex Brit Mil barrels the bore out was by a subsequent owner. Best thing would be to post good images of all markings to lock, stock (doubtful that any will still be there) & barrel so we can determine from those what we can. It will entail removing the lock & barrel though to get at all the marks.
Adrian

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by adrian

Hi Rick yes the British made the Pattern 1858 & then the Pattern 1859 as smoothbore Enfield "Rifles" for service in India. They decided, after the Mutiny, to always keep the arms of their Indian troops one generation behind those arms of the regular army.
Adrian

Hi Adrian. I thought I read something about this. Thanks!!

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by adrian

The British Govt did not smooth bore rifled guns, so if these are ex Brit Mil barrels the bore out was by a subsequent owner. Best thing would be to post good images of all markings to lock, stock (doubtful that any will still be there) & barrel so we can determine from those what we can. It will entail removing the lock & barrel though to get at all the marks.
Adrian

Once I receive mine, I'll clean up the lock and barrel and take photos of any markings on the lock and barrel. As you mentioned, there is probably stamps on the bottom of the barrels. But I suspect barrel removal may prove difficult, if not impossible without damaging the stock. That is, if the silver decoration surrounding the barrel is attached with small nails. I'll have to wait till it arrives and decide then. Thanks for your input. Most helpful. Rick.

[rickystl]

Well, I "thought" I was to be the co-owner of the second gun. Our Forum member Mefidk cannot find a way to ship this gun from Denmark to the USA. The laws in Denmark do apparently allow a muzzle loading firearm made before 1880 to be shipped. In spite of this, the local Denmark Postal Service does not want to ship it anyway. Thir own rules. Apparently we can get UPS to ship it - for $580USD!!!!! Others either don't want to ship it, or want an outragous amount of money to ship it. The situation is even worse for swords or knives.
The irony is that these two guns were shipped to it's current owner in denmark - from Sweden. Apparently, there seems to be no problem shipping these items INTO Denmark, but you can't ship them OUT.
Mefidk has gone above and beyound the call of duty in trying to find a way to ship this gun to me. Thought I would post this story here on the Forum to see if anyone might have a different idea of how to ship this gun to me? Any help much appreciated.

About a year ago I purchased a gun from a fellow Forum member who lives in France. He shipped the antique percussion muzzle loader to me by Postal Service and I received the gun in 5 days!!!

I guess maybe I'm partially "ranting" here. Can't believe the regulations some Countries have on antique weapons. Thanks for reading. Rick.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Rick,
Germany is next door, is the postal service there as 'picky'? or could it be more easily shipped to a member in France and then on from there? Internal E.U. post from Denmark might not be as restrictive for 'antique militaria'. Just thinking aloud
My Regards,
Norman.

[TVV]

I think Norman has the best idea: drive the item to a neighboring EU country with a more reasonable postal service and ship it from there.
Alternatively, maybe mefdik can try to disassemble the gun and ship stock, barrel and lock in separate packages. I had huge problems receiving a dress dagger that I bought on eBay from Italy last year, with the Italian postal service being just as difficult as the Danish appears to be. Finally, the seller disassembled the dagger and it arrived without further problems in separate packages. I am asusming that 3 separate Denmark Postal Service packages will cost less than $580 (UPS quote).

Regards,
Teodor

[Mefidk]

Yes I'm really sorry about this situation. I even switched my attention away from sharp pointy things to muzzle-loading guns because I know that as far as Danish law is concerned these are not classified as weapons if made before 1870, and I figured this might mean I could actually sell some of my collection rather than just stock-pile it. But it seems that all the Danish-based carriers either won't ship them or will only do it if I register myself as a business, get a contract with them, then they will charge an arm and a leg .

I actually got them shipped in from Sweden by a weapons licensed carrier - the only way to do it from the auction house. It cost almost as much as I paid for the guns!

Thanks for the suggestions Norman and Teodor. I'm not sure what the postal system in Germany is like, but I can find out. I know the situation is difficult in the UK, and by the sounds of it Italy. Unfortunately I'm not near a border, so unless I happen to be passing through its not practical.

Norman may be correct about internal shipping in EU. The problem here was that the parcel was x-rayed at Copenhagen and returned, but EU shipments may avoid this because there is no customs duty to be paid, and therefore fewer checks, but it will be a lottery. Also it is possible to find carriers within EU that are not so difficult, but these are more expensive than the post office.

Dismantling may be a good choice. The PO won't carry weapons parts, but perhaps if I send the barrel first and it slips through, then the non-metal and smaller parts should be OK. Since if I'm keeping it I'd want to treat the rust under the barrel (which I guess will be there), then I'd have to dismantle anyway, so its worth a try. Just hope I can do it without damaging the silver work.

All in all for those of us sitting in countries with these annoying rules it does mean our chosen hobby is becoming increasingly difficult. There are only so many interesting ethnographic items in Denmark!

Chris