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#31 |
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
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ah, well. did a bit more research.
armour piercing handgun bullets are made with a sintered tungsten alloy or a case hardened steel penetrator core that unlike lead does not deform when striking a kevlar jacket. the deformation of the lead projectile (even if copper jacketed) spreads the impact load even further on the kevlar layers not yet penetrated, slowing the projectile and resisting penetrating further. the pointier tungsten penetrator doesn't deform and thus can get thru more layers of kevlar. teflon is used to protect the bore of the handgun from frictional erosion from the harder projectile. they may also be copper jacketed to aid in engaging the rifling. they are also less accurate and have a shorter effective range. kevlar jackets that have been shot have been compromised and are replaced as further shots in the area where bullets strike have broken kevlar strands and if hit again may be penetrated. normal bullets may also penetrate up to 18 layers of kevlar armour at close range when fired out of longer (5"+) barrels. people wearing kevlar who are shot are often put out of action temporarily or even knocked out due to soft tissue injury and trauma. it's like being hit hard with a hammer. still better than being penetrated by a bullet. the gravity powered device used in the video to impact a soft iron bodkin onto a flat steel armour plate backed by what appears to be an inflexible hard backing layer may be an over simplification of the terminal ballistics. tests with actual arrows show penetration of breastplates, tho the points were usually stopped in the padded undergarment (but would have been uncomfortable to any wearer). the agincourt video above implies the bodkin points were soft iron and could not penetrate armour at all. contemporary accounts recorded that they could at close range. case hardening was a known technique used since late roman times, often used to add carbon to rods used in pattern welded swords. maybe the bodkins were case hardened? not terribly hard to pack a bunch of them in an air tight container filled with leather, hooves, salt and urine and heat the mix. case hardening of armour items would be more difficult. actual tests with case hardened bodkins would be interesting. the subject of kevlar also brings to mind the old layered linen armour which would stop arrows and resist sword cuts. british archers wore padded jackets for the same reason. nothing new under the sun. Last edited by kronckew; 26th July 2012 at 06:57 AM. |
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#32 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 675
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The reason that video caught my attention is that it pointed out that there was more to that epic battle than what the more popular renditions would have us believe. Cheers Chris |
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#33 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 422
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Compare this result with outcomes expected if the more extreme propaganda of arrows slicing almost unimpeded through enemy armour was true. Clearly, the longbow, and English archery in general, was effective (at least often enough to justify the investment). Perhaps not the superweapon it is sometimes claimed to be. Better to appreciate the weapon for the reality, rather than the fiction. |
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#34 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
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Hi Timo,
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But, as always, troop dispositions, coordination, battlefield terrain and so on were far more important than weaponry. Cheers Chris |
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#35 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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![]() Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Notes; In reference to Turkish weapons so that Forum may compare European with Turkish and for interest please see http://margo.student.utwente.nl/sagi/artikel/turkish/and http://turkishflightarchery.blogspot.com/ whilst at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow there is an excellent description and history of the English Longbow. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 26th July 2012 at 07:52 PM. Reason: added notes |
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#36 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
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Hi Ibrahiim,
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Great and very informative links, especially on Turkish archery - Thank you. Cheers Chris |
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#37 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 422
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Second, since they're going to close quickly, save that last arrow for in close, when you'll have more energy, and won't miss. One Japanese writer wrote that the whole point of military archery is putting arrows through armour at 15m. Soar's "Secrets of the English War Bow" has a chapter on shooting at charging enemies. Reports experimental tests of shooting at a moving armoured target. The target speed does help. And you don't get many shots. One at long range, and one at very short range. Obstacles and field fortifications will help. Also your own spearmen, to stop attackers and let you shoot at them. Last edited by Timo Nieminen; 27th July 2012 at 02:35 AM. |
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#38 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
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Timo,
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Cheers Chris |
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#39 |
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
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Hi Folks,
Here is an interesting video on how a longbow may have been made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAMNN6ryZeg Ironically, it is in French, though it must be said that self bows were known all over Europe, but only the English managed to field large enough numbers of archers to make a difference. Cheers Chris |
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