Newbie post, SE Asian knives

lordkoos · 7th July 2012, 06:42 PM

Hello to the forum, this is my first post. I'm living in northern Thailand for a time, and recently had the opportunity to purchase a group of old knives. I'm not an experienced collector but I love knives. Thought I would post photos of them and invite comment, hoping people could tell me more about them, as well as estimate their age. I've done a bit of research on my own, on this excellent site and elsewhere. The have not been particularly well stored or cared for and I'm sure the blades could look much better with a bit of work. They are northern Thai (Shan) I think although perhaps Burma?

First up, the largest & probably most interesting knife which is about 16" or 40cm long. This is some kind of ceremonial "priest" knife and looks to never have been sharpened. The hilt looks to be carved ivory, a demon or temple guardian fighting a lion? The knife came without a scabbard, is in good shape but for a crack in the ivory carving.

VANDOO · 8th July 2012, 07:32 PM

WELCOME TO THE FORUMS

ALL OF THESE KNIVES YOU HAVE POSTED LOOK GOOD TO ME. I AM NOT VERY KNOWLEGABLE ON THESE BUT PRIESTS KNIVES IS MOST LIKELY THE CORRECT CLASSIFICATION.

THE LARGER KNIVES MAY BE FOR CEREMONIAL USE OR WEAR YOU ARE IN A GOOD PLACE TO ASK SOME PRIESTS ABOUT IT.
THE SMALL ONES MAY BE PRIEST KNIVES AS WELL BUT NOT FOR CEREMONIAL USE OR WEAR BUT FOR EVERY DAY UTILITARIAN USE WHEN NEEDED.ALL OF THEM APPEAR TO BE FOR THE MORE WEALTHY CLASSES.
PERHAPS SOME OF THE DHA COLLECTORS CAN ADD SOMETHING.

PS. WE DON'T DISCUSS PRICES ON THE FORUMS BUT PERHAPS THOSE WITH SUCH KNOWLEGE CAN BE CONTACTED USING THE PM FUNCTIONS.

lordkoos · 9th July 2012, 05:53 AM

Thanks Vandoo. The only one of these I doubt the age of is the 9" monk's knife with the banded wooden scabbard & the bone handle -- it looks like it might have been rubbed with some kind of brown stuff to make it appear more aged. Also unlike the other knives it does not have silver details, rather they are brass with a very thin silver plating.

This big knife is interesting because I haven't seen others with this type of silver work around where the blade joins the ivory.

DhaDha · 9th July 2012, 07:12 PM

Hello there! these look good to me too. A mix of ages, but nice little knives. Agree that this one is the most interesting. As you say, very unique silver work. Love it. Hope you find more treasures. Cheers.

lordkoos · 11th July 2012, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DhaDha

Hello there! these look good to me too. A mix of ages, but nice little knives. Agree that this one is the most interesting. As you say, very unique silver work. Love it. Hope you find more treasures. Cheers.

Thanks much for your comments. Please feel free to speculate (or tell me if you know) about the age of the various knives. I'll be visiting an amulet market tomorrow & there are usually a few knives around, most are modern copies or fakes but occasionally some old stuff appears.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th July 2012, 05:17 PM

Salaams lordkoos ~ Nice collection ~ I wonder what the relationship is between these and say the H'Mong tribal knives in the Burmese border region?

Personally I would have preferred all your knives on the same thread instead of a new thread for each photo set? Perhaps that can be engineered so that they all appear on this thread by moderator staff support if that is agreeable please?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th July 2012, 05:18 PM

Nathaniel · 12th July 2012, 04:20 AM

Sawatdee Krap K.Lordkoos. Very nice Meed Mor. older blade, handle quite recent. You can tell by the style of silverwork and the resin job. Nice silverwork. As you know thought it's always hard to tell age because things in Southeast Asia with the heat, humidity and usual lack of maintenance, age allot quicker...just look at the buildings...some quite new buildings the exterior looks quite aged after a few years from the sun and rain.

Nathaniel · 12th July 2012, 04:32 AM

In Northern Thailand, as many areas there are so many different group it's hard to tell...so many have migrated, traded, all over the region. The Shan people are just one of many different groups in Northern Thailand...and so many sub groups of Shan as well...in Northern Thailand, there are the Tai Yai, Tai Lue. Also many non shan people such as the Akkha, Hmong, Lisu. Usually the non- minorities in Northern Thailand will called themselves Tai Yuan/ Khon Mueng...ie city folk

lordkoos · 17th July 2012, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams lordkoos ~ Nice collection ~ I wonder what the relationship is between these and say the H'Mong tribal knives in the Burmese border region?

Personally I would have preferred all your knives on the same thread instead of a new thread for each photo set? Perhaps that can be engineered so that they all appear on this thread by moderator staff support if that is agreeable please?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Yes I would have preferred that as well but the limit was 6 photos & no outside links so I had no choice.

lordkoos · 17th July 2012, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Sawatdee Krap K.Lordkoos. Very nice Meed Mor. older blade, handle quite recent. You can tell by the style of silverwork and the resin job. Nice silverwork. As you know thought it's always hard to tell age because things in Southeast Asia with the heat, humidity and usual lack of maintenance, age allot quicker...just look at the buildings...some quite new buildings the exterior looks quite aged after a few years from the sun and rain.

Yes things do age rapidly in the tropics, which makes it difficult to be a detective. Thanks for the info on this knife, I probably paid too much for it, but I suppose that's the cost of getting an education. Likely the handle is elephant bone? Do you know anything about the struggling figures depicted on the handle? I suppose it was burned and cracked that way to purposely make it appear old.

Saw gorgeous old Karen knife yesterday available for 15,000 baht, fairly large knife but you wouldn't call it a sword, in very nice condition with a large, plain, elephant ivory handle. It had a silver-clad scabbard in the typical Burmese style & was quite heavy in the hand. Not sure if it is worth that kind of money? I'll see if I can get a photo of it as I'm going back over there today.

David · 17th July 2012, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordkoos

Yes I would have preferred that as well but the limit was 6 photos & no outside links so I had no choice.

This is actually not true. After you click on up load with the first 6 images you should have an option to upload more before you actually enter the post.
You could also simply add another group in a subsequent post.

lordkoos · 27th July 2012, 12:54 PM

Thanks for the info on the image posting. I'm thinking now that this handle is bone, not ivory, if it is a bit more recent than the blade. If it was ivory it would have to be a pretty big piece as the handle is pretty large. No one has any knowledge of what story the carving might depict? I doubt that it is just some random art.

VANDOO · 27th July 2012, 06:04 PM

ITS DIFFICULT TO SAY WHICH GODS ARE DEPICTED IN BATTLE AS THERE ARE SO MANY. TO TAKE A GUESS IT MAY BE HANUMAN THE MONKEY KING FIGHTING A TIGER OR LEOPARD DIETY , I HAVE NO NAME FOR SUCH A BEING BUT IT IS DEFINITELY CAT LIKE. THE FUNNY PART IS THE CAT HAS THE MONKEY BY THE TAIL.

7th July 2012, 06:42 PM	#1
lordkoos Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 22	Newbie post, SE Asian knives Hello to the forum, this is my first post. I'm living in northern Thailand for a time, and recently had the opportunity to purchase a group of old knives. I'm not an experienced collector but I love knives. Thought I would post photos of them and invite comment, hoping people could tell me more about them, as well as estimate their age. I've done a bit of research on my own, on this excellent site and elsewhere. The have not been particularly well stored or cared for and I'm sure the blades could look much better with a bit of work. They are northern Thai (Shan) I think although perhaps Burma? First up, the largest & probably most interesting knife which is about 16" or 40cm long. This is some kind of ceremonial "priest" knife and looks to never have been sharpened. The hilt looks to be carved ivory, a demon or temple guardian fighting a lion? The knife came without a scabbard, is in good shape but for a crack in the ivory carving. Attached Images

9th July 2012, 05:53 AM	#3
lordkoos Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 22	Thanks Vandoo. The only one of these I doubt the age of is the 9" monk's knife with the banded wooden scabbard & the bone handle -- it looks like it might have been rubbed with some kind of brown stuff to make it appear more aged. Also unlike the other knives it does not have silver details, rather they are brass with a very thin silver plating. This big knife is interesting because I haven't seen others with this type of silver work around where the blade joins the ivory. Last edited by lordkoos; 9th July 2012 at 11:07 AM. Reason: add to description

12th July 2012, 04:20 AM	#8
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Sawatdee Krap K.Lordkoos. Very nice Meed Mor. older blade, handle quite recent. You can tell by the style of silverwork and the resin job. Nice silverwork. As you know thought it's always hard to tell age because things in Southeast Asia with the heat, humidity and usual lack of maintenance, age allot quicker...just look at the buildings...some quite new buildings the exterior looks quite aged after a few years from the sun and rain. Last edited by Nathaniel; 12th July 2012 at 04:50 AM.

12th July 2012, 04:32 AM	#9
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	In Northern Thailand, as many areas there are so many different group it's hard to tell...so many have migrated, traded, all over the region. The Shan people are just one of many different groups in Northern Thailand...and so many sub groups of Shan as well...in Northern Thailand, there are the Tai Yai, Tai Lue. Also many non shan people such as the Akkha, Hmong, Lisu. Usually the non- minorities in Northern Thailand will called themselves Tai Yuan/ Khon Mueng...ie city folk Last edited by Nathaniel; 12th July 2012 at 04:47 AM.

8th July 2012, 07:32 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WELCOME TO THE FORUMS ALL OF THESE KNIVES YOU HAVE POSTED LOOK GOOD TO ME. I AM NOT VERY KNOWLEGABLE ON THESE BUT PRIESTS KNIVES IS MOST LIKELY THE CORRECT CLASSIFICATION. THE LARGER KNIVES MAY BE FOR CEREMONIAL USE OR WEAR YOU ARE IN A GOOD PLACE TO ASK SOME PRIESTS ABOUT IT. THE SMALL ONES MAY BE PRIEST KNIVES AS WELL BUT NOT FOR CEREMONIAL USE OR WEAR BUT FOR EVERY DAY UTILITARIAN USE WHEN NEEDED.ALL OF THEM APPEAR TO BE FOR THE MORE WEALTHY CLASSES. PERHAPS SOME OF THE DHA COLLECTORS CAN ADD SOMETHING. PS. WE DON'T DISCUSS PRICES ON THE FORUMS BUT PERHAPS THOSE WITH SUCH KNOWLEGE CAN BE CONTACTED USING THE PM FUNCTIONS.

9th July 2012, 07:12 PM	#4
DhaDha Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 165	Hello there! these look good to me too. A mix of ages, but nice little knives. Agree that this one is the most interesting. As you say, very unique silver work. Love it. Hope you find more treasures. Cheers.

11th July 2012, 05:17 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams lordkoos ~ Nice collection ~ I wonder what the relationship is between these and say the H'Mong tribal knives in the Burmese border region? Personally I would have preferred all your knives on the same thread instead of a new thread for each photo set? Perhaps that can be engineered so that they all appear on this thread by moderator staff support if that is agreeable please? Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

11th July 2012, 05:18 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408

27th July 2012, 12:54 PM	#13
lordkoos Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 22	Thanks for the info on the image posting. I'm thinking now that this handle is bone, not ivory, if it is a bit more recent than the blade. If it was ivory it would have to be a pretty big piece as the handle is pretty large. No one has any knowledge of what story the carving might depict? I doubt that it is just some random art.

27th July 2012, 06:04 PM	#14
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ITS DIFFICULT TO SAY WHICH GODS ARE DEPICTED IN BATTLE AS THERE ARE SO MANY. TO TAKE A GUESS IT MAY BE HANUMAN THE MONKEY KING FIGHTING A TIGER OR LEOPARD DIETY , I HAVE NO NAME FOR SUCH A BEING BUT IT IS DEFINITELY CAT LIKE. THE FUNNY PART IS THE CAT HAS THE MONKEY BY THE TAIL.