Bali keris pamor

henri · 19th April 2012, 07:24 AM

Dear members ,

This keris from Bali with a very smooth and black shining blade has a strange pamor on one side only .
Is that a mistake from the maker , is that a " fantasy " , or is that something we could classified ....
Thank you for your thoughts

Henri

Jean · 19th April 2012, 02:40 PM

Hello Henri,
Such a unsymmetrical pamor is called pamor tangkis, see examples on Google.
Regards

Sajen · 19th April 2012, 04:43 PM

Hello Henri,

best and shortest explanation you will find here: "Tangkis- a means of warding off, or a shield; a blade is said to have pamor tangkis when
it carries a different pamor motif on each of its blade faces, and this is considered to be a talisman against black magic."

It is a citation from a site of a member here but by some reason don't want to provide the link.

BTW, nice blade!

Regards,

Detlef

David · 19th April 2012, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

"Tangkis- a means of warding off, or a shield; a blade is said to have pamor tangkis when
it carries a different pamor motif on each of its blade faces, and this is considered to be a talisman against black magic."

This has always been my understanding of the definition of "tangkis". It is not the name of a specific pamor pattern per se, but when there is a different pamor on each side of the blade. I am not sure that this Henri's blade qualifies for the category since there seems to be no pamor on one side.

I could be wrong, but his appears to be an accidental pamor. Such pamors are usually considered special due to their accidental nature i believe.

Sajen · 19th April 2012, 05:41 PM

I am not very sure as well David, of course, one side is kelengan, the other side have pamor. Think it's still pamor tangkis.

Regards,

Detlef

Jean · 19th April 2012, 09:08 PM

Yeah, I agree that this is a borderline case because of the pamor kelengan and just a pamor motif on the other side, and tangkis is a javanese name AFAIK. The odd pamor motif seems original and not accidental from the pictures, but a closer inspection could reveal the contrary. The blade looks original and old.
Regards

David · 19th April 2012, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Yeah, I agree that this is a borderline case because of the pamor kelengan and just a pamor motif on the other side, and tangkis is a javanese name AFAIK. The odd pamor motif seems original and not accidental from the pictures, but a closer inspection could reveal the contrary. The blade looks original and old.
Regards

I agree that this is an older Bali blade. Also agree that tangkis is a Javanese terminology. How do you determine that the pamor is not accidental?

Jean · 20th April 2012, 10:36 AM

By "accidental" I mean unwanted pamor and not unplanned pamor.
If this was a Javanese blade, I would compare the motif with known ones described by Tammens or Van Veenendaal for instance but this is probably not applicable for a Balinese blade.
This blade is well made and I doubt that the maker would have left an unwanted motif but I don't know whether it is a planned or unplanned one. The pamor motif looks to be superficial so it may have been made more recently than the blade itself.
Regards

dbhmgb · 20th April 2012, 02:26 PM

"The pamor motif looks to be superficial so it may have been made more recently than the blade itself."

It's funny that you say that - my eye is untrained and my knowledge fits on the head of a pin - but, when I first studied the pamor, that exact thought entered my mind. It just seem "off" to me.

Greybeard · 20th April 2012, 03:15 PM

Yes, Jean, I agree: The pamor looks very superficial -- almost like painted on ...

David · 20th April 2012, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greybeard

Yes, Jean, I agree: The pamor looks very superficial -- almost like painted on ...

Frankly, i have seen at least as couple of Bali keris that people have painted "pamor" patterns onto that were that were actually half way decent keris, not the tourist crap where you'd expect that, probably because that thought they could sell it for more that way. So there is precedent for that. I also thought that the pattern here looked a bit superficial at first, but the photos alone just don't give me enough information to form a strong opinion either way.
And Jean, my use of "accidental" was to mean "unplanned", not "unwanted".

Jean · 20th April 2012, 07:46 PM

David, I agree with you, although the picture is clear it is not possible to determine if the pamor motif is genuine or fake (applied or etched with acid) but if the case, it is more smartly made than usually. It also seems odd to do it on one side of the blade only but who knows?
Regards

henri · 20th April 2012, 10:51 PM

Thank you guys for your comments .
From " fake " to " painted " or etch applied " .... when I take this keris on hand and look at this pamor very very closely I can assure the pamor is real but yes the nickel is not dep into the blade ( photos below ) . This keris was part of a lot of 10 I bought sometimes ago to a collector in the UK who passed away and pretty sure he has not bought this one in a tourist shop during a visit in Bali ! But .... never never know !
Henri

Jean · 21st April 2012, 09:55 AM

I hope that Alan will give us a clue when he returns from Europe.
Regards

Jean · 28th April 2012, 04:22 PM

I returned home and checked 2 items:
1. According to the EK, pamor tangkis would be the correct description for this blade (one side with pamor, one side without pamor or kelengan). The correct name in case of 2 different pamors on each side is pamor slewah.
2. I could not find a similar pamor motif in my reference books but they refer to Javanese blades only.
Regards

henri · 28th April 2012, 10:05 PM

Thank you Jean . After consulting some documentations I agree we could called this one "tangkis" . I have got in the past a similar pamor on a Bali keris but both sides of the blade . I am still surprised by the very thin layer of nickel for this pamor . Not painted ! Not an easy job for the swordsmith to shape and keep the pamor ...
Henri

A. G. Maisey · 30th July 2012, 01:06 AM

A bit late with this post. Sorry, just noticed the thread.

According to my understanding this is not pamor tangkis.

Pamor tangkis is a different pamor on each blade face.

This keris has a small seemingly accidental patch of pamor on one blade face only, the other blade face has no pamor.

This cannot be classified as pamor tangkis.

Jean · 30th July 2012, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pamor tangkis is a different pamor on each blade face.

This keris has a small seemingly accidental patch of pamor on one blade face only, the other blade face has no pamor.

This cannot be classified as pamor tangkis.

Alan's statement is in accordance with the book "Keris Jawa" from Haryoguritno (page 412) but not with the EK (pages 463/464), hence the source of the confusion but after all the names are not important

Regards

David · 30th July 2012, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Alan's statement is in accordance with the book "Keris Jawa" from Haryoguritno (page 412) but not with the EK (pages 463/464), hence the source of the confusion but after all the names are not important

Not sure that i would go so far as to say that names are not important. Just because there is some disagreement in the interpretations of 2 highly regarded books does not mean a proper definition of "tangkis" is not possible. From my perspective and understanding of the term this keris is not "tangkis". If such a pamor does indeed hold the intent for it's owner to act as a talisman against black magic and this blade is not tangkis, then i suppose it will not fulfill that need for it's owner. Names are descriptors that are used with some concensus of community. We may never know the exact intent and purpose of the pamor of this keris, but i do believe that what we call it now does hold some importance and significance to our understanding of this blade.

A. G. Maisey · 31st July 2012, 12:49 AM

Yes Jean, I can understand your confusion, however, I think we need to look behind what is on the page.

Haryono Guritno is an authority in his own right; Bambang Harsrinuksmo was a journalist who was very interested in keris. There are a number of errors in EK, as well as a number of statements that have drawn strong disagreement from people I know in Solo.

However, this is not to say that Bambang was wrong, nor that EK is without value. Why? Because in the study of keris, opinions vary and those opinions can vary a lot. Its almost a matter of which school you went to.

Keris study is not a standardised study. Its not like Japanese swords where everything is written down and standardised; with Jap swords, if you have a good enough memory you can learn everything and win signature reading competitions against Japanese masters, even if you were born in London.

But you cannot do this with keris.To understand the keris you need to be able to think in a Javanese way and understand things as Javanese people understand things. Keris study is not about memory and categorisation according to set parameters. Keris study is about the culture from which the keris comes, and the language of that culture is not even a standardised language in linguistic terms. With keris, we need to take in everything and try to understand it within its own context.

EK tells us that pamor tangkis has the power to avoid illness caused by an epidemic, there is no mention of black magic.

Then if we look at the picture that is in EK we see a keris with faint, worn pamor on one blade face, and wos wutah on the other blade face.

Keris Jawa just describes the physical appearance of pamor tangkis, it doesn't say anything about its esoteric powers.

Then we have the fact that both EK and KJ are books that are primarily Javanese in context, yes, EK does try to move outside Jawa, but the influence on thought and text is Javanese. The blade being discussed is from Bali. The meaning of a little patch of pamor on one blade face could be quite different in Bali. Maybe it could be different in every separate kingdom in Bali.

The opinion I gave is exactly what I have been taught, and 90% of my knowledge comes from Solo.

Possibly there is room in this question for a little bit of leeway in various opinions.

Jean · 31st July 2012, 09:53 AM

Thank you Alan and I fully agree with what you say.

Regards

Ganja Iras · 31st July 2012, 06:32 PM

dear forum ,

firstly i would like to thanks to the admin and all member for warm welcome to me.
as a newbie i want to share some pic's of my keris (it's been sold ) , pamor tangkis ;related with the topics.
thank you.

Ganja Iras

satsujinken · 11th September 2012, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

But you cannot do this with keris.To understand the keris you need to be able to think in a Javanese way and understand things as Javanese people understand things. Keris study is not about memory and categorisation according to set parameters. Keris study is about the culture from which the keris comes, and the language of that culture is not even a standardised language in linguistic terms. With keris, we need to take in everything and try to understand it within its own context.

EK tells us that pamor tangkis has the power to avoid illness caused by an epidemic, there is no mention of black magic.

newbie from the land of the krisses would like to acknowledge your deep understanding of javanese tradition

anyhow, as far as I know, pamor tangkis means that one side is keleng (without pamor) and other have some kind of pamor

tangkis could also mean : block / parry and this in my limited knowledge and general acceptance here is tend to be associated with blocking black magic, secondly to block anything bad, including plague, illnesses, etc

according to friend of mine (he could be wrong, though), all krisses with pamor in one side of the blade called TANGKIS, means the other side is kelengan

all krisses with 2 pamors, say it on one side of the blade or different side of the blade called dwi warno / dwi warna

19th April 2012, 07:24 AM	#1
henri Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 81	Bali keris pamor Dear members , This keris from Bali with a very smooth and black shining blade has a strange pamor on one side only . Is that a mistake from the maker , is that a " fantasy " , or is that something we could classified .... Thank you for your thoughts Henri Attached Images

20th April 2012, 10:51 PM	#13
henri Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 81	Thank you guys for your comments . From " fake " to " painted " or etch applied " .... when I take this keris on hand and look at this pamor very very closely I can assure the pamor is real but yes the nickel is not dep into the blade ( photos below ) . This keris was part of a lot of 10 I bought sometimes ago to a collector in the UK who passed away and pretty sure he has not bought this one in a tourist shop during a visit in Bali ! But .... never never know ! Henri Attached Images

31st July 2012, 06:32 PM	#22
Ganja Iras Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 57	hello dear forum , firstly i would like to thanks to the admin and all member for warm welcome to me. as a newbie i want to share some pic's of my keris (it's been sold ) , pamor tangkis ;related with the topics. thank you. Ganja Iras Attached Images

19th April 2012, 02:40 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Henri, Such a unsymmetrical pamor is called pamor tangkis, see examples on Google. Regards

19th April 2012, 04:43 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Henri, best and shortest explanation you will find here: "Tangkis- a means of warding off, or a shield; a blade is said to have pamor tangkis when it carries a different pamor motif on each of its blade faces, and this is considered to be a talisman against black magic." It is a citation from a site of a member here but by some reason don't want to provide the link. BTW, nice blade! Regards, Detlef

19th April 2012, 05:41 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	I am not very sure as well David, of course, one side is kelengan, the other side have pamor. Think it's still pamor tangkis. Regards, Detlef

19th April 2012, 09:08 PM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Yeah, I agree that this is a borderline case because of the pamor kelengan and just a pamor motif on the other side, and tangkis is a javanese name AFAIK. The odd pamor motif seems original and not accidental from the pictures, but a closer inspection could reveal the contrary. The blade looks original and old. Regards

20th April 2012, 10:36 AM	#8
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	By "accidental" I mean unwanted pamor and not unplanned pamor. If this was a Javanese blade, I would compare the motif with known ones described by Tammens or Van Veenendaal for instance but this is probably not applicable for a Balinese blade. This blade is well made and I doubt that the maker would have left an unwanted motif but I don't know whether it is a planned or unplanned one. The pamor motif looks to be superficial so it may have been made more recently than the blade itself. Regards

20th April 2012, 02:26 PM	#9
dbhmgb Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 112	"The pamor motif looks to be superficial so it may have been made more recently than the blade itself." It's funny that you say that - my eye is untrained and my knowledge fits on the head of a pin - but, when I first studied the pamor, that exact thought entered my mind. It just seem "off" to me.

20th April 2012, 03:15 PM	#10
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Yes, Jean, I agree: The pamor looks very superficial -- almost like painted on ...

20th April 2012, 07:46 PM	#12
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	David, I agree with you, although the picture is clear it is not possible to determine if the pamor motif is genuine or fake (applied or etched with acid) but if the case, it is more smartly made than usually. It also seems odd to do it on one side of the blade only but who knows? Regards

21st April 2012, 09:55 AM	#14
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I hope that Alan will give us a clue when he returns from Europe. Regards

28th April 2012, 04:22 PM	#15
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I returned home and checked 2 items: 1. According to the EK, pamor tangkis would be the correct description for this blade (one side with pamor, one side without pamor or kelengan). The correct name in case of 2 different pamors on each side is pamor slewah. 2. I could not find a similar pamor motif in my reference books but they refer to Javanese blades only. Regards

28th April 2012, 10:05 PM	#16
henri Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 81	Thank you Jean . After consulting some documentations I agree we could called this one "tangkis" . I have got in the past a similar pamor on a Bali keris but both sides of the blade . I am still surprised by the very thin layer of nickel for this pamor . Not painted ! Not an easy job for the swordsmith to shape and keep the pamor ... Henri

30th July 2012, 01:06 AM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	A bit late with this post. Sorry, just noticed the thread. According to my understanding this is not pamor tangkis. Pamor tangkis is a different pamor on each blade face. This keris has a small seemingly accidental patch of pamor on one blade face only, the other blade face has no pamor. This cannot be classified as pamor tangkis.

31st July 2012, 12:49 AM	#20
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes Jean, I can understand your confusion, however, I think we need to look behind what is on the page. Haryono Guritno is an authority in his own right; Bambang Harsrinuksmo was a journalist who was very interested in keris. There are a number of errors in EK, as well as a number of statements that have drawn strong disagreement from people I know in Solo. However, this is not to say that Bambang was wrong, nor that EK is without value. Why? Because in the study of keris, opinions vary and those opinions can vary a lot. Its almost a matter of which school you went to. Keris study is not a standardised study. Its not like Japanese swords where everything is written down and standardised; with Jap swords, if you have a good enough memory you can learn everything and win signature reading competitions against Japanese masters, even if you were born in London. But you cannot do this with keris.To understand the keris you need to be able to think in a Javanese way and understand things as Javanese people understand things. Keris study is not about memory and categorisation according to set parameters. Keris study is about the culture from which the keris comes, and the language of that culture is not even a standardised language in linguistic terms. With keris, we need to take in everything and try to understand it within its own context. EK tells us that pamor tangkis has the power to avoid illness caused by an epidemic, there is no mention of black magic. Then if we look at the picture that is in EK we see a keris with faint, worn pamor on one blade face, and wos wutah on the other blade face. Keris Jawa just describes the physical appearance of pamor tangkis, it doesn't say anything about its esoteric powers. Then we have the fact that both EK and KJ are books that are primarily Javanese in context, yes, EK does try to move outside Jawa, but the influence on thought and text is Javanese. The blade being discussed is from Bali. The meaning of a little patch of pamor on one blade face could be quite different in Bali. Maybe it could be different in every separate kingdom in Bali. The opinion I gave is exactly what I have been taught, and 90% of my knowledge comes from Solo. Possibly there is room in this question for a little bit of leeway in various opinions.

31st July 2012, 09:53 AM	#21
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan and I fully agree with what you say. Regards