Two handed swords

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

Here are some pics of the same, plus another two handed German sword (16th century). Any information as to the second one too (origin, shape, etc.) ?

Thanks for all,

jm

[fernando]

Cerimonial ?!
The cat is the real thing, though

.

[Matchlock]

Though the cat is no doubt by far the cutest thing in the pics , I think the sword might be genuine as well.
What I do not like about this 'traditionally thought to be historic' kind of presentation in general is the fact that a) two-hand swords were not used by armored men, and b) the suit of armor is much smaller than the sword ...

Best,
Michael

[kronckew]

i don't know, the cat looks like a modern reproduction.

interesting serrated blade. reminds me of a tulwar recently posted (like today )

the knights look a bit short*. i'd probably blame the display stands.

the cat looks like it's the right height tho.

*- just saw matchlock's post a minute earlier than mine GMTA.

[Matchlock]

Hi Kronckew,

Yup, seems I was somewhat quicker on the draw ...

I tried to brighten up the images because I think the sword is worth a discussion. I like the wavy line ornament on the ricasso often found on such big swords.

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Well understood that, when i suggest cerimonial, i don't pretend is not guenuine ... only not a combat one but, one to display power and authoritiy .

[Matchlock]

Fully agreed, 'Nando,

Your comment was not the reason at all why I said I thought it was genuine. Let's see what Ottmar says ...

Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

The second two-hand sword seems to feature a genuine North German early-17th c. blade.
It should however not be presented together with a late 16th c. horseman's armor and an early-16th c. style Katzbalger because this ensemble does not convey a homogeneous impression.

Best,
Michael

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

Thanks for all this interesting information. At the Barcelona Citadel Museum, you can also see the weavy ornament at the ricasso of a similar two handed sword (see link below).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6830857...n/photostream/

My German two handed sword was previously on display in a Dutch Museum. It has been dated to ca. 1570 according to the information I have on it.

It is 184 cm length and weighs 3.8 kg (ca. 8 pounds) .

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

As to my cat (Katz), it remains outdoor because it probably saw that the 16th century Katzbalger is missing its original scabbard....

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Michael,

This is a Landsknecht officer (captain) infantry full armor, ca. 1560. They are described to wear a close combat katzbalger, as well as either an halberd/pike, or a two hand sword, as they were fighting on foot at the front ranks of their infantry company (fahlein), consisting of 400 landsknecht mercenaries. Only the colonel and the second in command, lieutnant colonel, were horsemen among landsknecht officers. This katzbalger should be mid 16th century (later period of landsknechts), due to the shape of the passau running wolf etched on blade and quillons.
The match should not be so bad !

Isn't it ?

Jm

[Matchlock]

Hi Jean-Marc,


Thanks for responding so fast.

As concerns the Katzbalger:
I feel that we really need to see good close-ups of the ricasso section and the characteristic fluting which should be there. The overall length of the weapon should not fall short of ca. 88 cm, possible wear and working time shortening theoretically included.

As regards your ensemble: I did not mean to say it was bad by any means - which of us can present anything approximating that? Anyway, it is of museum quality, no doubt. It is both decorative and optically imposing. A fair compromise, no question.
After all, and just judging by a few pics, I think you have been doing very well!

Did you consider studying this thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8630



Best from Lower Bavaria for tonight,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Jean-Marc S.

Hi Michael,

This is a Landsknecht officer (captain) infantry full armor, ca. 1560. They are described to wear a close combat katzbalger, as well as either an halberd/pike, or a two hand sword, as they were fighting on foot at the front ranks of their infantry company (fahlein), consisting of 400 landsknecht mercenaries. Only the colonel and the second in command, lieutnant colonel, were horsemen among landsknecht officers. This katzbalger should be mid 16th century (later period of landsknechts), due to the shape of the passau running wolf etched on blade and quillons.
The match should not be so bad !

Isn't it ?

Jm

Bonjour Jean-Marc,

yes, this is all correct.

beautifully homogeneous armor, excellent!

the 2 hand sword (without the blade Flamberge) is also from the middle of the 16th century (1550-1570), a similar same sword can be found in the livrustkammeren in Stockholm.(see picture Seitz Blankwaffen p 295).

are there any traces of where "fleur de lis" have been ,inside the ring-guards, most of this type 2-hander have them ?

the katzbalger, I think I have seen before, have you recently purchased it from a dealer in the Netherlands ?
to say something about it that makes sense, (probably) high resolution photographs are needed.


best,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello all,

Thanks for the interesting comments. Indeed, the katzbalger has been purchased in the Netherlands (at Bolk antiques, European dealer of fine antique Swords and Armors). It was previously in a 40-year old private collection. The seller in the Netherlands (Ton Bolk, highly recommended) got only one period katzbalger in almost 40-year business (this one) while many later 19th century replicas were obtained by the same and sold over the years...
Concerning the two hand sword (straight blade), I will look inside the ring guards later today and will let you know for the 'fleurs-de-Lys'.

The length of the Katzbalger is 74 cm. There are a mid 16th century 'Passau running wolf' (at center blade on two sides), and also (at ricasso) three 'cross and orb' motifs (in a triangle) one one side, and three moons (also in a triangle) on the reverse side of blade.

My best ,

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Michael,

Indeed, I have seen the (outstanding) link to the 'Katzbalger' thread. It is the best thread I ever found on any forum or so (can almost make a very well documented book with it !).

Thanks and all the best,

jm

[fernando]

Hi Jean Marc.
Could you show a close picture of the opposite (left) side of the katzbalger guard ?

[Atlantia]

Hi Jean-Marc

Beautiful armour and swords!

Can we see some close-ups of the second two hander please (the straight edged blade one). Especially the hilt and guard please.
Thank you
Gene

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Jean-Marc S.

Hello all,

Thanks for the interesting comments. Indeed, the katzbalger has been purchased in the Netherlands (at Bolk antiques, European dealer of fine antique Swords and Armors). It was previously in a 40-year old private collection. The seller in the Netherlands (Ton Bolk, highly recommended) got only one period katzbalger in almost 40-year business (this one) while many later 19th century replicas were obtained by the same and sold over the years...
Concerning the two hand sword (straight blade), I will look inside the ring guards later today and will let you know for the 'fleurs-de-Lys'.

The length of the Katzbalger is 74 cm. There are a mid 16th century 'Passau running wolf' (at center blade on two sides), and also (at ricasso) three 'cross and orb' motifs (in a triangle) one one side, and three moons (also in a triangle) on the reverse side of blade.

My best ,

jm

Hi,
yes ton Bolk offers very nice range of weapons, especially his firearms are generally in a beautiful condition.
BTW the authentic....katzbalgers post #95 and #96 in the above mentioned katzbalger thread are offered/sold by him in 2009.

Can you please post some detailed pictures of the Katzbalger, if possible of;
the hilt , the running wolf and all the marks in the ricasso, also of the extremely damaged edge.

thanks+regards,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Sorry for the quality of some pics...

[Jean-Marc S.]

[Jean-Marc S.]

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Bonjour Jean-Marc,

yes, this is all correct.

beautifully homogeneous armor, excellent!

the 2 hand sword (without the blade Flamberge) is also from the middle of the 16th century (1550-1570), a similar same sword can be found in the livrustkammeren in Stockholm.(see picture Seitz Blankwaffen p 295).

are there any traces of where "fleur de lis" have been ,inside the ring-guards, most of this type 2-hander have them ?

the katzbalger, I think I have seen before, have you recently purchased it from a dealer in the Netherlands ?
to say something about it that makes sense, (probably) high resolution photographs are needed.


best,

Hi Jasper,

My friend - and I am completely with him - states that that was an old-fashioned first-half to mid-20th century dating unfortunately adopted by Seitz; weaponry has made progress ever since and the correct period assignment for this latest North German type of two-hand procesional swords should be '2nd decade 17th century'.

I attach images of a group of those North German two-hand swords acquired as 'Vortragschwerter' (processional swords) by the town council of Emden in ca. 1615 (!), and still preserved in the Emden Amory; one of them (see close-up) is comparable to the one in discussion.

The lower three photos taken by me in the Emden reserve collection in 1992 show a similar North German type, early 17th c., the grip missing, the ricasso with comparable engraved line decoration.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Jean-Marc,

This 'Katzbalger' blade was shortened from a Tuareg sword (kaskara) and bears the characteristic crescent marks which were struck into the cold iron, in contrary to Northern European blades where the makers marks were always deeply stuck into the red-hot iron. The so-called 'wolf' and 'orb and cross' are just primitively and crudely scratched instead of cut with an engraver's gouge - nothing else! All original orb and cross marks are inlaid with yellow metal (line tausia).
In short, I am sorry to state that this is one of the most brutal forgeries I have ever seen ... my word on it! Return it as soon as possible.

Please study my thread on Katzbalgers and show me just one genuine sample with
- this kind of marks
- this kind of blade without the ricasso flutings!

Sorry but best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

A sword similar type of the sword under discussion is also dated by Thomas del Mar end of 17thC.
see picture. but maybe he has also read from Seitz

The sword you show in the last 3 pictures is a composite 2-hander.
with a cross-guard from the processional swords almost certainly made for the guard of Julius, Duke of Brunswick and Luneburg in Heinrich Grubenhagen.
most of these swords have original blades which are dated 1573,1574,....
a composite Guard of Julius sword with a similar blade as the composite you have posted has been sold by Sothebys 5-15 oktober 2005, schloss Marienburg and is dated end of the 16thC.lot 231.
lot 224-lot230 are original Julius guard swords and all dated 1573/74


I think the 17thC processional swords you are refering to have diamand shaped bars at the guard and flat blades. (Io flat bars and diamands shaped blades)

best,
jasper

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Jean-Marc,

This 'Katzbalger' blade was shortened from a Tuareg sword (kaskara) and bears the characteristic crescent marks which were struck into the cold iron, in contrary to Northern European blades where the makers marks were always deeply stuck into the red-hot iron. The so-called 'wolf' and 'orb and cross' are just primitively and crudely scratched instead of cut with an engraver's gouge - nothing else! All original orb and cross marks are inlaid with yellow metal (line tausia).
In short, I am sorry to state that this is one of the most brutal forgeries I have ever seen ... my word on it! Return it as soon as possible.

Please study my thread on Katzbalgers and show me just one genuine sample with
- this kind of marks
- this kind of blade without the ricasso flutings!

Sorry but best,
Michael

I know nothing about genuine katzbalgers but I'm pretty sure that blade isn't from a Tuareg takouba or a Sudanese kaskara. The half moon stamps used are quite different on Saharan weapons (outline only, not stamping the entire shape like this, and are found in pairs, not the triple arrangement seen here. The profile of the blade also wouldn't fit for a kaskara or takouba. The scratched wolf and cross and orb are similar to some native African imitation marks however.

I don't have the expertise to judge the sword and obviously would bow to superior knowledge, but just wanted to say that the blade and the half moons do not correspond to any kaskara or takouba I've ever run across.

[Matchlock]

Hi Iain,


Here are just a few samples of Tuareg swords with double crescent blade marks from German sales of the past years; the sales dates are shown in the scans.

The marks on the last one are hardly visible but the description states that they are there.

Please cf.

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...on-Makers-Mark

http://www.google.de/imgres?q=half+m...42&tx=16&ty=68

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14266


I should say that the experts on the Ethnographic section could tell you more on this topic.


Best,
Michael

[fernando]

I am afraid you didn't get Iain's point, Michl

[Iain]

Hi Michael,

Actually those illustrate my point precisely. The form of the marks is different and typically focused only on the outline, they are also always encountered in pairs. On the katzbalger in question three half moons are stamped which would be incredibly unusual for a Tuareg sword. That is not to say it couldn't happen but it would be entirely unique in my experience.

The profile is also not correct for a Tuareg sword, if it had some decent age the tip would have long ago been narrowed from excessive sharpening and would show heavy sharpening marks as Tuaregs typically use stones to hone the edge with leave very distinctive long striations.

By the way the first sword is in fact a kaskara from the Sudan, not a Tuareg sword, in the case of kaskara the tip is almost always a sharp point, not rounded.

I actually only collect takouba so I am fairly comfortable on the topic which is why I thought I would leave a comment on this thread. You can look at http://takouba.org if you like, which is my website.

Of course takouba and kaskara blades unfortunately often do turn up mated with basket hilts and the like to form modern fakes, but just looking at this blade, I don't think it's from a takouba or a kaskara. However I can't comment on the authenticity of the entire sword as it's very much out of my area of study and experience.

Cheers,

Iain

[Matchlock]

Sorry if I didn't.

I just tried to back up my thesis.

m

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Michael,

Actually those illustrate my point precisely. The form of the marks is different and typically focused only on the outline, they are also always encountered in pairs. On the katzbalger in question three half moons are stamped which would be incredibly unusual for a Tuareg sword. That is not to say it couldn't happen but it would be entirely unique in my experience.

The profile is also not correct for a Tuareg sword, if it had some decent age the tip would have long ago been narrowed from excessive sharpening and would show heavy sharpening marks as Tuaregs typically use stones to hone the edge with leave very distinctive long striations.

By the way the first sword is in fact a kaskara from the Sudan, not a Tuareg sword, in the case of kaskara the tip is almost always a sharp point, not rounded.

I actually only collect takouba so I am fairly comfortable on the topic which is why I thought I would leave a comment on this thread. You can look at http://takouba.org if you like, which is my website.

Cheers,

Iain

Excellent, Iain,

I guess we are on the same page now - thank you! And I do like your site although this is not my expertise; this hopefully will explain for my mixing up the terminology.

Anyway, my post did not mean to criticize, just clarify.

Best,
Michael