FORMING HOT METAL WITH BARE HANDS

[VANDOO]

I HAVE SEEN EXAMPLES OF THE KERIS SAID TO HAVE BEEN WORKED HOT AND SHAPED WITH THE BARE HANDS. SOME SHOW INDENTATIONS SAID TO HAVE BEEN MADE BY FINGERS. THERE WAS MENTION OF OTHER BODY PARTS BEING USED AS WELL BUT WE WILL CONCENTRATRE ON HANDS ONLY.
I SAW A PHILIPPINE KRISS WITH WHAT WAS EITHER DEEP RUST PITS OR SOME OF THESE DEPRESSIONS. THIS BROUGHT UP FOUR QUESTIONS.
1. DOES ANY MEMBER HAVE FIRST HAND KNOWLEGE IF THIS TECKNIQUE IS REAL AND IF SO HOW IS IT DONE?.
2. DOES THIS TECKNIQUE APPEAR ON WEAPONS OTHER THAN THE KERIS 3. IS IT MORE COMMON ON MALAYSIAN OR INDONESIAN KERIS?.
4. DOES THE TECKNIQUE OCCUR MOSTLY ON MAJAPAHIT AND BUDA FORMS OR MORE RECENT FORMS AS WELL.?

IT PROBABLY WOULD BE GOOD TO ADD ANY LEGENDS OR STORIES CONCERNING THIS QUESTION ,FACT AS WELL AS FICTION.
SUCH LEGENDS OFTEN SHED SOME LIGHT ON WHY IT WAS DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE. IT MAY HAVE BEEN A SIMPLE TECKNIQUE OR JUST A STORY MADE UP TO ADD TO THE MYSTERY OF THOSE WHO WORKED WITH IRON OR TO PROMOTE A CERTIAN PANDAY OR FORGE. EITHER WAY A INTERESTING STORY.

[David]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I HAVE SEEN EXAMPLES OF THE KERIS SAID TO HAVE BEEN WORKED HOT AND SHAPED WITH THE BARE HANDS. SOME SHOW INDENTATIONS SAID TO HAVE BEEN MADE BY FINGERS. THERE WAS MENTION OF OTHER BODY PARTS BEING USED AS WELL BUT WE WILL CONCENTRATRE ON HANDS ONLY.
I SAW A PHILIPPINE KRISS WITH WHAT WAS EITHER DEEP RUST PITS OR SOME OF THESE DEPRESSIONS. THIS BROUGHT UP FOUR QUESTIONS.
1. DOES ANY MEMBER HAVE FIRST HAND KNOWLEGE IF THIS TECKNIQUE IS REAL AND IF SO HOW IS IT DONE?.
2. DOES THIS TECKNIQUE APPEAR ON WEAPONS OTHER THAN THE KERIS 3. IS IT MORE COMMON ON MALAYSIAN OR INDONESIAN KERIS?.
4. DOES THE TECKNIQUE OCCUR MOSTLY ON MAJAPAHIT AND BUDA FORMS OR MORE RECENT FORMS AS WELL.?

IT PROBABLY WOULD BE GOOD TO ADD ANY LEGENDS OR STORIES CONCERNING THIS QUESTION ,FACT AS WELL AS FICTION.
SUCH LEGENDS OFTEN SHED SOME LIGHT ON WHY IT WAS DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE. IT MAY HAVE BEEN A SIMPLE TECKNIQUE OR JUST A STORY MADE UP TO ADD TO THE MYSTERY OF THOSE WHO WORKED WITH IRON OR TO PROMOTE A CERTIAN PANDAY OR FORGE. EITHER WAY A INTERESTING STORY.

It is know as Keris Picit when dealing with keris. AFAIK this is a genuine technique that was used a relatively select few keris of talismanic nature. It is also an often faked technique and i am afraid that in the end, after we make all the educated guess that we can make, it ultimately comes down to a matter of faith as to whether or not we believe that these impression were made with bare hands. Personally i believe that i have a few actual examples of the technique in my collection. However, it does not seem to be a particularly superhuman feat. After all, the fingers don't need to be held to the hot, soft metal for very long and i would imaging that well calloused fingertips, possibly with some sauve applied, could do the job without much actual damage to the hand. Think about fire walkers who walk through a field of hot coals. This also isn't magick, just quick movement and a bit of faith in one's self.
I can't say i have seen any contemporary attempts at this, unless they are ones made to be aged to deceive. I believe all my examples are later than Mojopahit and are not in the Buda form. Probably more likely 16th and 17th century.
I am afraid that my damnable logic and common sense demands that i relegate the Mpu Sombro story to that of legend, as intriguing and engaging a story as it might be...

[A. G. Maisey]

Interesting subject.


I've tried it by wetting my hand and very quickly punching my finger tip into a paper thin strip of red hot iron. You can get an indentation like this. I did it a few times and I burnt myself once. I reckon a smith with hardened hands could probably squeeze a similar paper thin piece of iron between his finger tips.

I have seen a dukun (shaman) kissing the cutting edge of a small red hot pedang , which left half moon marks on the blade edge. I felt at the time I was watching stage magic.

In Jawa there are consistent legends about forging a blade by use of hands alone. I think these are legends, but the legend comes close to reality with the talismanic keris pijit, usually these are keris sombro with paper thin blades and they show indentations where supposedly they have been squeezed and indented by finger pressure. As I just said:- this is possible, but I believe that most of these that I've seen, and I've seen a lot, were indented by a hammer.

These pijit marks do not, in my experience, occur on keris buda or keris majapahit (keris sajen) forms, they occur most times in keris sombro, and very, very occasionally in normal keris.

I cannot recall having seen picit marks in anything other than keris.

An after thought:- nothing to do with pijit marks in keris, but a smith who understands fire control can boil water in a paper bag on top of his forge. The bag is filled with water and allowed to get just sufficiently wet to prevent it from catching fire, by controlling the fire at a constant temperature, the water boils, the bag remains unburnt. Its all about balancing heat against moisture. The same sort of logic applies to wet fingers and hot metal.

[ivoke]

think you should google "Leidenfrost-effect"
it occurs when wet surfaces come in contact with very hot surfaces, if the surface isnt hot enough, you'll burn yourself.

[A. G. Maisey]

Which I did. Once.

Don't know anything about leidenfrost.

Do know a little bit about fire and iron.

Addition:-

Just checked the liedenfrost thing. Looks like that's what was happening. Now I know its name.

[Richard Furrer]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Which I did. Once.

Don't know anything about leidenfrost.

Do know a little bit about fire and iron.

Addition:-

Just checked the liedenfrost thing. Looks like that's what was happening. Now I know its name.

As someone who has unintentionally grabbed,not gently touched nor bumped, but put a hand sqeeze on an orange bar of steel in a very unfocused moment.....I would say that it is all legend. It took me three weeks to heal enough to really use that hand again.
At a good welding heat 1% carbon steel is about as close to dripping liquid as it will get...and still more resistant to our flesh than we are to it.

That is not to say that we can not bend it or twist it, but we can not "forge it"...apply enough pressure to leave an indentation the bar...no way. In blade thicknesses it cannot be done, but I would think that one could ripple a bar of 1/16" thick steel without much issue, but leaving indentations in a 1/8" thick or more bar..no.

I have seen blades which had "lip prints" and "finger prints" in the steel..done with tools not flesh I am sure.


As to the vapor barrier...yes it can help a lot with lessening the severity of casual contact burns, HOWEVER, once you push hard enough to break through the vapor....which one would need to do to forge, well...that is a different story.....ever see meat on a hot grill? That was my hand...made the same sound too.

Ric

[A. G. Maisey]

Richard, I recognise you as an experienced smith, however, I have indented red hot, not orange, iron with the tip of my middle finger.

The material was paper thin, which is the thickness of a sombro blade, paper thin, not one sixteenth, nor anything like it.

I had a tray of sand on the anvil, I kept my right hand in water until the iron was directly over the sand and as close as it could be without touching, then I punched my finger tip into the hot iron as fast as I could. I tried this a few times, and I burnt myself once, the burn was not severe, but that was the last time I tried it.

What I've described can be done, but you need to move very fast.

I understand exactly what you are saying, and I was not forming metal, the metal I hit with my finger tip was paper thin.

As to forming metal with bare hands, my feeling is the same as yours, but I've seen some very strange and totally inexplicable things in Jawa and Bali. Maybe it is a possibility, but not for me, and not for you.

[Richard Furrer]

Alan,
You have messaged me in the past that I would not find what I was looking for should I travel to watch Empu....I think this is just one more technique I will never see.

Ric

[Rick]

Could not this effect be accomplished with a special tool rather than the hand ?

And who could tell le difference ?

[A. G. Maisey]

Richard, you're 100% correct about never being able to see it.Keris pijit that are accepted as genuine all come from the very distant past.

I've seen genuine things in Jawa that are totally inexplicable, not parlour tricks, but manifestations of powers that cannot be explained with reason, nor logic.

Bear this in mind:- by profession, I'm an auditor. Not a bean counting auditor, but an auditor who deals in areas involving subterfuge, confidence tricks, and other rather interesting things. By nature I'm a sceptic, and better than 50 years in my profession has made me even more sceptical.

Knowing Javanese culture as I do, I am prepared to accept that keris picit could have in some cases been made in a similar way to the way I experimented with. The ones that we accept as genuine are in all cases paper thin sombros, or similar.

I do not believe that it would be possible to actually forge a blade by finger pressure, or by hitting with the hand. I see this as the mixture of myth and reality that is perfectly normal in Jawa. It may be culturally real, but that does not make it fact.

The empus of the distant past were akin to shamans.

They were in some cases, nothing like the current crop of people who can make keris.

Rick:- yes, of course, and the vast bulk of "keris pijit" are the result of coming into contact with something like a ball pein hammer. But there are a very few that we do accept as most probably real.

However, nobody needs to believe that they're real. Its all a matter of how you measure something based upon experience.

[VANDOO]

IN THE KRIS MYSTIC WEAPON OF THE MALAY WORLD BY EDWARD FREY PAGE 10 ARE SOME PICTURES OF FIGURE D AND FIGURE E. THEY MAY BE EXAMPLES OF THIS TECKNIQUE BOTH ARE ARCHAIC KERIS.

I INCLUDE TWO PICTURES OF THE MORO KRIS BLADE THAT GAVE ME THE IDEA OF ASKING IF THERE WAS ANY KNOWLEGE OF THIS TECKNIQUE / STORY APPLYING TO ANY OTHER WEAPONS BESIDES THE KERIS. THESE MAY BE PITS BUT THEY APPEAR TOO UNIFORM AND THE REMAINDER OF THE BLADE LOOKS CLEAN . I WAITED TO USE THE PICTURES UNTIL THE TRANSACTION WAS FINISHED IN THE SWAP FORUM.
FROM WHAT HAS BEEN SAID BY THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE FORGED AND EVEN ATTEMPTED THIS TECKNIQUE IT WOULD APPEAR LIKELY A TOOL IS USED PERHAPS SHAPED LIKE A FINGER. IT DOES MAKE ONE WONDER WHEN THE STORY CAME INTO BEING.

[David]

Barry, i saw this kris up for sale, but never for a second thought these indentations were formed at the forging. Their placement does not give that impression. I would be more likely to buy into a story of possible damage from bullets before i would think the former.
As for the possibility of this technique being possible with the fingers i have little doubt, though obviously many examples that we see are not done that way.

[Karttikeya]

Genuine paper thin blades with finger pressure markings or what we call Sombro nowadays should have 9 finger pressure marking, no more no less. Most of blades are supposed as tangguh Segaluh and Pajajaran have 9 luk, I myself do not know why should be 9, Anybody know about it? I share some photos of keris Puthut with 9 finger pressure markings. Indentation from pressure markings occured on every pamor wulan-wulan and also Puthut figure seems very artistic, it was as though the pamor gives the detail appearance of Puthut itself.

[David]

Originally Posted by Karttikeya

Genuine paper thin blades with finger pressure markings or what we call Sombro nowadays should have 9 finger pressure marking, no more no less. Most of blades are supposed as tangguh Segaluh and Pajajaran have 9 luk, I myself do not know why should be 9, Anybody know about it? I share some photos of keris Puthut with 9 finger pressure markings. Indentation from pressure markings occured on every pamor wulan-wulan and also Puthut figure seems very artistic, it was as though the pamor gives the detail appearance of Puthut itself.

Interesting keris Karttikeya. I am somewhat confused by you use of terminology. I have never heard this type of keris called "puthut". AFAIK that term is reserved for keris where the figure is at the gandik, not the hilt. I would probably call this a keris sajen or perhaps simply a talismanic keris. Also, AFAIK, not all keris Sombro display pijit, finger indentations. They also do not have an integral figural iron hilt like your example. I am also confused about your claim that "genuine" keris pijit all have 9 indentation marks. I have at least two examples which i would consider to be genuine. One is a what i know as a keris puthut, the other is what i know as a keris Sombro. The Puthut has 5 indentations, the Sombro has 3. I cannot see the indentations on the photo of your example due to the angle of your shot. I have a hard time, though, picturing 9 indentations on what are generally very short blades.

[A. G. Maisey]

Well Karttikeya, that's something new I've learnt!

I rather think a lot of people don't know this information.

[Boedhi Adhitya]

David,
I understand your confusion. In the old days this kind of keris would be called "keris sajen" or "keris majapahit", but I reckon recently a new terminology arise and call it as "puthut sajen" or "puthut" in sort, due to it's figural, one piece handle. Another term is "puthut cundrik" to call this kind of keris with dhapur cundrik (a kind of pedhang suduk shape). Sometimes it's confused with sombro.

An 'old school boy' like you may get "lost in terminology" nowdays in Java keris world

regards,

Boedhi Adhitya

[A. G. Maisey]

Good to see you back Boedhi.

In the Land of Oz now?

You're right about current keris terminology. One highly respected Solo empu, now retired, remarked to me a couple of years ago:- "where do they get all these names from? I've never heard of them!"

It is absolutely certain that the new generation of Javanese keris fanciers have been busy producing their own lexicon for some time now. If the people I learnt from in the 1970's and 1980's were still alive, they would be just as confused as many of us older people are.

[David]

Originally Posted by Boedhi Adhitya

An 'old school boy' like you may get "lost in terminology" nowdays in Java keris world

Hi Boedhi, nice to read you again.
This is undoubtable true and i certainly make no claims to be up on the latest keris lingo in the Jawa keris world. Not sure that is really possible from half way around the world though.
So if the above type of keris is nowadays referred to as Puthut Sajen, so be it. I am curious what the actual meaning of the word "puthut" is. Can anyone assist there. I have always understood it as a praying figure while i have looked upon the sajen hilts as ancestral figures, which may or may not be the same thing.
Still, i am doubtful that even the current keris world in Jawa would call Karttikeya's keris a Sombro, would they? And i still question that a keris pijit need have 9 indentations to be considered genuine.

[Richard Furrer]

Originally Posted by David

Barry, i saw this kris up for sale, but never for a second thought these indentations were formed at the forging. Their placement does not give that impression. I would be more likely to buy into a story of possible damage from bullets before i would think the former.
As for the possibility of this technique being possible with the fingers i have little doubt, though obviously many examples that we see are not done that way.

I'm afraid I am no help at all with terminology.
As to bullets..remarkable that this blade would have been hit six times and on both sides of the blade...and with no telegraphing of the dent to the opposite side (concave being met with convex..as happens with hail damage to automobiles and all the sheet metal I have in the shop)

As to fingers making those impressions....the spirit is strong, but the flesh is oh so weak.

Vandoo,
Is the patterned pamor nestled into these "finger print" depressions on that blade and not on the opposing side? I would assume this to be the case.

Ric

[David]

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

As to bullets..remarkable that this blade would have been hit six times and on both sides of the blade...and with no telegraphing of the dent to the opposite side (concave being met with convex..as happens with hail damage to automobiles and all the sheet metal I have in the shop)

Ric, perhaps my sarcasm didn't come through well enough here. When i wrote "I would be more likely to believe..." i meant to imply that i didn't really believe that explanation either, but that it simply seemed more plausible than the former. But both explanations seem implausible to me and these marks appear to be damaged sustained at some point after forging and completely unintentional.

[A. G. Maisey]

A puthut--- or putut--- is a disciple, or servant, or pupil of a holy man. The word exists in Old Javanese. Since the function of a puthut was to protect his teacher, the meaning on a keris blade can be interpreted as protective. However, it does appear to be a later motif, attached to the keris after Islam.

But "puthut" is just the name, and the name may not really indicate the source of inspiration for inclusion. Most keris terminology is comprised of euphemisms, like a lot of belief systems, there is public knowledge and then levels of hidden knowledge.

The number of indentations on a keris pejet that most people will accept as genuine can vary, some people will hold the belief that it can only be a specific number of indentations, placed in a specific way, and this seems to vary depending upon what group of keris fanciers one is aligned with.

The prime identifier for a keris sombro is the eye at the tip of the tang. The legend that goes with this is that she --- Sombro was a woman --- would make a number of blades, string them around her waist, and walk from village to village selling them. She was the daughter of Manca, the grand-daughter Marcukunda, and the great grand-daughter of Kajadsari --- according to Pangeran Wijil.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A puthut--- or putut--- is a disciple, or servant, or pupil of a holy man. The word exists in Old Javanese. Since the function of a puthut was to protect his teacher, the meaning on a keris blade can be interpreted as protective. However, it does appear to be a later motif, attached to the keris after Islam.

But "puthut" is just the name, and the name may not really indicate the source of inspiration for inclusion. Most keris terminology is comprised of euphemisms, like a lot of belief systems, there is public knowledge and then levels of hidden knowledge.

Thanks Alan. I now recall receiving this same info on the meaning of puthut before. My reason for inquiring the meaning of the word was more to understand how the name has now become attached to keris sajen, not why it was originally used to describe what we know as the dhapur keris puthut. I ask because it seems to me that the symbolism and meaning of the figural hilts of keris sajen is not the same as the symbolism of this figure in the dhapur puthut. But since all this info is vague and unsubstantiated, perhaps i am wrong. Or perhaps i just ask too many questions...

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Thank you for your warm welcome, Pak Alan and David. Yes, it's happened that life has brought me here to The Land of Oz.

Well, I might say, keris terminology has been in chaos lately, especially since the social networking became popular in Indonesia. 100s friends on your list is a small number. Suddenly, everyone became keris expert

And regarding symbolism...well..it seems everyone has his own interpretation now..

Originally Posted by VANDOO

...

1. DOES ANY MEMBER HAVE FIRST HAND KNOWLEGE IF THIS TECKNIQUE IS REAL AND IF SO HOW IS IT DONE?.
2. DOES THIS TECKNIQUE APPEAR ON WEAPONS OTHER THAN THE KERIS
3. IS IT MORE COMMON ON MALAYSIAN OR INDONESIAN KERIS?.
4. DOES THE TECKNIQUE OCCUR MOSTLY ON MAJAPAHIT AND BUDA FORMS OR MORE RECENT FORMS AS WELL.?

1. No, I don't have the first hand knowledge. But once, a senior keris lover told a story about his grandfather who was a court's empu named Tarunadahana. He saw his grandfather working in the workshop/besalen, handling his red-hot work with his bare hand. He asked," Isn't it hot, Grandpa?" "Yes, it is", The Grandpa replied, "But fire is an assistant of empus. If he couldn't master the fire, how could he works?". But yet, Tarunadahana still had hammers and tongs to help him. "Mastering the fire" to some extend was a pre-requirement to became a court empus.

2. As far as I know, no. And mostly it only applied to kerises that weren't intended as a weapon.

3. In my experience, mostly Javanese. Well, anyway, I don't have much experience on Malaysian kerises,

4. Majapahit-like, to be precise. If it comes later, then it would be shaped like the old keris. To be perceived as powerful, it's better that a talismanic devices has an archaic origin, right? Or at least it looks like ones . But most talismanic kerises don't adhere to tight 'tangguh' requirement. So, estimating it's ages/era, even using the traditional methods, is a guessing game. "Looks old" is the game, the older the better. I'm not saying every pieces is new. What I'm saying is, even if it was made in Mataram era, it would take an older style.

Like Allan, I'm very skeptical, especially regarding 'strange kerises'. Unlike a good judge, I assume "guilty" untill proven otherwise to any 'strange' kerises.

[David]

Originally Posted by Boedhi Adhitya

Like Allan, I'm very skeptical, especially regarding 'strange kerises'. Unlike a good judge, I assume "guilty" untill proven otherwise to any 'strange' kerises.

This seems a healthy skepticism...

[Dominique]

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]
In Jawa there are consistent legends about forging a blade by use of hands alone. I think these are legends, but the legend comes close to reality with the talismanic keris pijit, usually these are keris sombro with paper thin blades and they show indentations where supposedly they have been squeezed and indented by finger pressure.

Alan, I am curious to know if you would consider this keris as pijit. The blade is very thin and flexible towards the point. You can see indentations on both sides.

[David]

[QUOTE=Dominique]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Interesting subject.

In Jawa there are consistent legends about forging a blade by use of hands alone. I think these are legends, but the legend comes close to reality with the talismanic keris pijit, usually these are keris sombro with paper thin blades and they show indentations where supposedly they have been squeezed and indented by finger pressure.

Alan, I am curious to know if you would consider this keris as pijit. The blade is very thin and flexible towards the point. You can see indentations on both sides.

Dominique, that is an interesting keris. And i very much like the hilt.
A keris picit (pijit, pecit, whatever spelling ) is so-called based upon what appear to be impressions of finger tip in the blade. You say there are indentations on both sides of this blade, but honestly i cannot see them in these photographs. maybe Alan's eyes are better than mine.
Maybe you could try a different angle for your shot. The high-relief pamor pattern on this blade does not make it easy to assess indentations if they are there.

[Dominique]

I know, it doesn't look like finger tips, but there are slight indentations, the blade is not flat. I would need to make a pic of the blade profile.
I like the hilt too

[A. G. Maisey]

Sorry Dominique, from the pics I cannot tell whether I'm looking at a possible KP or not.

[Dominique]

Difficult to make good picture, but you might see with these pictures that the blade is slightly ondulated.

[Rick]

Can we see the blade photographed edge on to see how it looks with that view?