SCHIAVONA FOR COMMENTS

[fernando]

I would certainly like so much to receive members comments on this one; mainly origin and age ... apart from whatever you feel like remarking about it.
Single edged blade with one fuller, length 89 cms (35"). Grip keeping its (original) leather grip.

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[fernando]

more pictures


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[Multumesc]

Very beautiful sword. Schiavone of Venetian 17th-century .

[Jim McDougall]

This is a remarkable example of the Venetian 'schiavona' swords which indeed appears of 17th century. These infantry swords are commonly associated with the bodyguards of the Doge of Venice, as well as in many cases use by the 'Consiglio deo Dieci' (Council of Ten) with these marked with the 'CX'. The 'gitterkorb' (=trellis hilt, Seifert, 1966) conforms to examples similar of this period, and the brass shield type pommel (often termed 'katzenkopfknauf' =cats head) is unusual in having a human face in place of the usual central boss.

While these 'schiavona' type swords are typically associated with Venice, which indeed was the central location most were used, they found use further in a number of other European situations. The swords themselves are believed to have developed probably from Hungarian or other mid European swords, with the development of the basket guard heavily influenced by contemporary Italian designs. There are however other mid European hilts c.1600 with similar trellis type guards. These swords are believed to have developed through Dalmatia, and into Venice, where the basket hilts developed by around mid 17th century perhaps earlier.

Interestingly there are references to the term 'spada schiavonescha' as early as 1391, but of course the exact form of the sword being described is unknown. The term 'schiavona' is describing the Dalmatian associations with the swords used by the men serving with the forces of Venice, and the Castello District of Venice was long populated by people from Dalmatia.

For those desiring further references on these fascinating swords, one of the most outstanding articles showing thier development is by Nathan Robinson, "The Schiavona and its Influences" online on 'My Armoury'.
Also:
"Cut and Thrust Weapons", E. Wagner, Prague, 1967
"A Schiavona Rapier" Claude Blair, JAAS, Vol.V, #12, Dec 1967, p.453-54
"Blankwaffen Schiavona" Gerhard Seifert, 'Duetsches Waffenjournal", Vol.2, #12, Dec. 1966, pp.42-47
"The Rapier and Smallsword 1400-1820" A.V.B. Norman, 1980, p.65

Thank you for sharing this Fernando!!! a great inspiration to excavate all these notes!

All the best,
Jim

[Matchlock]

Hi 'Nando,

My friend says that this is a truly Portuguese (!) schiavona of quite late type, ca. 1730, so congratulations! Sadly, its state of conservation has obviously suffered from the sea climate.

Best,
Michl

[cornelistromp]

additional notes on previous posts.

a simple memory bridge on schiavona Hilts;

early schiavona Hilts have seperate loose bars overlapping (mid17thC), hereinafter schiavona hilts came with adjacent or fixed bars and a single mouse stairs (late 17thC) such as Fernando's sword, from 1700-1750 double stairs and after 1750 multiple mouse stairs.

best,

[fernando]

Thank you so much, Gentlemen.
I knew i could count on you .

Jim, your comprehensive input is always precious; i am much obliged for that.

Thanks a lot for having resourced Ottmar, Michl ... and what a surprise. Why Portuguese ? I have read of Slavonic soldiers using Schiavonas when fighting in Spain, but Portugal ?

Jasper, your remarks and enlightening pictures are, as always, of the best, and i thank you so much for that.

Well, i confess that, digesting the quoted provenance of this example as been Portuguese, is something that will keep me awake tonight .
If any of you Gentlemen wish to extend his opinion on such issue, i will gladly welcome it with great pleasure.

Just a note to report that, i find it interesting that this blade slightly widens in its last section. I wasn't expecting this feature in these swords or, at least, in this particular one.
Any ideas?


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[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Fernando for acknowledging my post and the kind words. That means a lot to the old researcher here It was most rewarding to gather these notes, and even better to have had the great input from Jasper and Michael, which I have added to them.

I thought the blade seemed to widen toward the tip, but wasn't really paying enough attention as I was focused on the hilt. It seems to me that this type feature is like the 'yelman' on sabres which adds momentum to the slashing cut in additional weight at the end. On the Polish sabres with this feature I was once told that the widening was called by a Polish term which meant 'feather' in a wry way of referring to added weight.

I am very curious as well on the Portuguese attribution, and like you I knew of these Balkan troops fighting against Ottomans in Spain, but had not heard of these distinct basket hilt swords reaching Portugal.

All the best,
Jim

[cornelistromp]

Hi Fernando,

@ Jim,
a pleasure to meet you back on the forum, schiavona are your specialty, I believe!



I have consulted and updated my old schiavona knowledge and literature and have come to the conclusion that your schiavona is older as I originally expected.
There is an almost identical schiavona with a single-edged blade and similar hilt in the Stibbert Museum; inv 4873 and dated Venice 1620-1650.

Now that we're arrived at the Stibbert, I can not ignore the finest schiavona I know;
inv 2814 Veneto 1650, wonderful work of art.

So your Schiavona most probably comes from venice and I would date it without shame around 1650 latest.

best,
Jasper

[fernando]

Thanks for the tip on the blade and solidary doubts on this sword's provenance, Jim my friend .
I like the "feather" idea .


So glad with your new input and enlightening images, Jasper.
Mind you, i wouldn't mind swapping my example for this one at the Stibbert Museum

[Matchlock]

My friend's opinion irrevocably is: Portuguese, ca. 1730, considering that the blade is that of an early 18th c. cavalry backsword (Pallasch), a type not found in earlier Schiavonas, and the hilt - according to him - is of band iron.
Best,
Michael

[BerberDagger]

Hi Matchlock, did you have more information regarding the portouguese schiavona's ? I mean from literature ?

[Matchlock]

No, if I had so I would have posted them.

m

[G. McCormack]

Lovely sword! But the pommel is almost certainly a modern replacement. What do you all think?

[Matchlock]

My friend thinks the pommel is original and characteristic of a Portuguese type of schiavona.

Best,
Michael

[G. McCormack]

Look at all the other bronze alloy pommels. Completely different lines and workmanship- and not because of country of origin. In my opinion, the pommel is lost wax cast bronze, rather crude, poor lines, and the tang is crudely peened on to it. The grip itself looks old, perhaps period, but may not go to this sword. Look at the end of the grip, nearest the pommel.

A great sword, with some not-unexpected modern work done to it, in my humble opinion.

[BerberDagger]

Originally Posted by G. McCormack

Lovely sword! But the pommel is almost certainly a modern replacement. What do you all think?

I aggree , the pommel is very unusual , very crude, and olso top spike is very unusual and thin for a weapon . But schiavona swords are frequently composed with pieces of different period... the schiavona was used here in Venice from 1550 to 1880 ....

[fernando]

Thank you all for your precious input, Gentlemen.
I confess i am somehow perplexed with the diverse opinions on this sword.
I have gone through a marathon like research on this Schiavona theme, with particular incidence in this specific example.
This now brings me a strong willing to post here what i have gathered, as a match or 'contradition' with what was already posted by you Gentlemen in this thread:

Starting by the origin

With all due great respect for Michl's friend Ottmar, after a struggling search and some phone calls i can not find any data appointing for Schiavonas having(also) been made in Portugal. As Jim quoted, these swords came down to Spain equiping mercenary troops (Schiavoni / Stradiots). We may even admit that, there is evidence of this type of swords having actually been made in Spain. Besides having been informed that, Schiavonas were used by Spaniards against the Portuguese during the Restoration War (1640-1668), in the Iberian exhibition held at the Portuguese Museum of Fine Arts in 1881, from the four Schiavonas present, example #298 had the inscription SAHAGUN on its wavy blade and example #333 had the inscription MIN SINAL ES EL SANTISIMO CRUCIFIO on its equaly wavy blade. The other two were apparently German. But no trace of Portuguese examples.
On the other hand, i have had an aledged connoisseur opinion that this Schiavona is likely Venetian.

The hilt

Band iron ? I see nothing abnormal with the way this basket is built, neither did someone whom i contacted, with a considerable knowledge on Schiavonas:

Baskets were made of various pieces and often “forge-welded” together. That is, heat is applied and then it is pounded, bonding the various pieces together. The various pieces were forged and shaped with grinding/sanding/etc. The rivet on yours found on the thumb ring is a very nice detail and good to see there.

The pommel.

Cast ... why not cast? After a primary statement from a local collector that these pommels were cast and not forged, i had a more extensive (and partly no coinciding) impression on the subject:
The pommel does not look cast to me. It being ornate does not indicate it being cast. It just indicates it’s ornate. Let’s remember that even cast elements have to come from a master. Often masters are made from tin, brass, copper or other ferrous materials. The pommels on my reproduction swords are not cast and were “carved” right out of a brass block. There are examples of very crude ones and very, very ornate ones from history. Yours looks crude, for sure, and perhaps is a replacement. Its shaping is nice, a factor often missed with replacements. The decoration is the weirdest part. The stippling and face are very odd in their application. I can’t imagine the pommel is original.
It is also interesting to quote the description of a Schiavona Sword with Accession number #1829 at the Higgins Museum:
Wooden leather-wrapped grip tapering to cast brass "cat's eye" pommel, carved with lion faces.
I would also consider Oakeshott's impressions:
Most of the Schiavona hilts are quite plain ... but in the quality of their pommels and blades they vary greatly. Some pommels are poorly-shaped, feble, flat iron things whereas others are splendid bronze ones ...
... followed by Nathan Robinson in his Schiavona article:
The study of this diversity can be observed in the pommel alone. Some examples are poorly executed hunks of metal: misshapen and lacking symmetry. Others are detailed and artistic sculptures in their own right, often featuring masks, faces, or elaborate rosette patterns. Pommels were made from iron, bronze or brass, and even solid silver

The blade

"Palach" is probably a term applied to cavalry swords in general and, in the context, a connotation that the blade is an atypical one when mounted in these swords. Not necessarily; this does not impeach the discussed example from being a Schiavona, blad included. 1730 would be a consensual date for the blade; would (should) the hilt be earlier? I personaly beleive so.

not-unexpected modern work

Maybe not. Its picture is included in a book published in 1950 and his author assures me that this sword was in his collection ten years before that ... untouched ever since.
Again i would like to transmit a specialist's impression:
The brass ferrule, as i’d call it, isn’t all that unusual on swords but is more common on Germanic examples. This is odd to see it here. I believe this means it’s a composite piece and was added to make it all fit together and be organic. Who knows when this was done, as it could very well have been in the 18th century.

Crudeness or lack of perfection

It is worthy of note that various authors mention the different finish and care taken by the arsenals with munitions grade swords for regimental ranks and that of fine specimens made by master smiths for officers, nobles and parade purposes.

If you don't mind, this is the end of this round

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