INDO PERSIAN TABAR AXE

Cerjak · 4th February 2012, 02:34 PM

Hello everybody,
I would like to know more about this axe
How old could be ? early 19th or 20th C .
Is it battle axe or parade axe ?
I seems that a gun barrel was used to made this axe but I'm not sure.
any help will be welcome.
Regards

Cerjak

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th February 2012, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Hello everybody,
I would like to know more about this axe
How old could be ? early 19th or 20th C .
Is it battle axe or parade axe ?
I seems that a gun barrel was used to made this axe but I'm not sure.
any help will be welcome.
Regards

Cerjak

Salaams Cerjak .. Looks like a Qajari dynasty Persian parade axe. They were often decorated in silver and gold and arabesques. Are there any screw turns in the axe handle inside as sometimes there are hidden blades screwed into these devices. These moon shaped axes appear to be parade only whereas the meaty saddle axe see "Islamic arms and armour by Anthony North". is for bashing helmet protected skulls etc... The Qajar period ended in the early 1920s . Parade Axe Qajari Persian period.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

AJ1356 · 4th February 2012, 02:54 PM

I concur on the Qajar.

ariel · 4th February 2012, 04:01 PM

The crucial distinction between the real fighting axes and the parade/souvenir ones is the presence or absence of a wedged blade. The real ones had it, the souvenirs didn't. While there might be exceptions, no fighting axe would have a flat, thin head. Only in Africa :-)
Agree with Qajar/ceremonial :-) attribution.

Cerjak · 4th February 2012, 05:58 PM

Thank you Ibrahiim,Ariel & AJ 1356 for yours answers.there isn't any screw turns in the axe handle.So it should be parade axe.
But could you explain me what means ceremonial axe ?Is it made
for tourists ?In this case this axe will not have any interest.

ariel · 4th February 2012, 06:40 PM

During the Qajar era, Iran made frantic efforts to modernize their country in general and military in particular. Western-type weapons, bladed included, were imported and copied locally en masse. The old style weapons were discarded rapidly. Tabars, bazu-bands, shields, kula-khuds all became anachronistic. Thus, there was no reason to produce them for military use, but tey did look exotic! Instead, their cheap copies of non-fighting quality were manufactured for tourists, for parades, Tazieh performances and for export as souvenirs. The standard set of tin-iron kula-khud, shield with acid-etched or engraved decorative pics and a single bazu-band was a popular object of Western home decor ( akin to Victorian copies of European armour). Add there the so-called "revival swords" ( suspiciously similar to the newer Sudanese kaskaras with thin blades and koranic acid-etched inscriptions all over them), khanjars with ivory handles and Shah-Nameh or just pornographic motives and tabars with thin flat blades, and you get the idea.

Before the oil era, this scrap metal and carpets were, I suspect, the main sources of export coming from Iran. Having come through a multitude of dealers and pawn shops, they are now flooding the e-bay.

I would not touch them.

Well, maybe just a carpet :-)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th February 2012, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Thank you Ibrahiim,Ariel & AJ 1356 for yours answers.there isn't any screw turns in the axe handle.So it should be parade axe.
But could you explain me what means ceremonial axe ?Is it made
for tourists ?In this case this axe will not have any interest.

Sallams Cerjac ~I concur on avoid. What are worth collecting are the saddle axe variety not these fake so called parade axes which are as previously described ... tourist stuff.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Cerjak · 4th February 2012, 08:52 PM

ok I don't like tourist items ,I have some helmets, sheld etc too and I hope they are not all made for tourist market because thy had cost me a lot...
I somebody have some pics about from good indopersian helmet I will be happy to see.

Regards

Cerjak

Stan S. · 4th February 2012, 10:56 PM

Sorry to dissapoint you, Cerjak, but that helmet is most definetely a tourist item and likely of a fairly recent manufacture (late 20th century). The telltale signs are a non-sliding (welded) nasal and the "horns" - not a very practical feature to carry on your head in battle

Your axe on the other hand, looks like a good period example (mid to late 19th century). While it mostly resembles a parade weapon, it's less lavish than usual decoration makes me believe that it could have more functionality than just a display item. The haft is not likely to be a made out of a barrel. These Persian axes are known for having hollow metal hafts almost exclusively. The lack of any finale at the botom makes me think that it was designed to conseal a stiletto, which appears to be missing now. Seeing any internal threading at the end of the haft would verify that.

Overall I think it is a lovely axe that would compliment any collection of Indo Persan arms.

Atlantia · 4th February 2012, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan S.

Sorry to dissapoint you, Cerjak, but that helmet is most definetely a tourist item and likely of a fairly recent manufacture (late 20th century). The telltale signs are a non-sliding (welded) nasal and the "horns" - not a very practical feature to carry on your head in battle

Your axe on the other hand, looks like a good period example (mid to late 19th century). While it mostly resembles a parade weapon, it's less lavish than usual decoration makes me believe that it could have more functionality than just a display item. The haft is not likely to be a made out of a barrel. These Persian axes are known for having hollow metal hafts almost exclusively. The lack of any finale at the botom makes me think that it was designed to conseal a stiletto, which appears to be missing now. Seeing any internal threading at the end of the haft would verify that.

Overall I think it is a lovely axe that would compliment any collection of Indo Persan arms.

I agree with you on the Axe Stan. Its unusual for the shaft to be totally straight with no 'pommel'.

Cerjak, is the hanlde end hollow?Is there a thread inside?

But the helmet might still at least be an old one.
These horned demon face ones with the fixed position nasal guards are not 'war helmets', but I think some are at least old. I think a load came to the UK for the great exhibition of 1851.
The chainmail looks right to me. The link diameter, the brass links for decoration, the overall shape.
Cerjak, are the links butted or closed?

Stan S. · 4th February 2012, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I agree with you on the Axe Stan. Its unusual for the shaft to be totally straight with no 'pommel'.

Cerjak, is the hanlde end hollow?Is there a thread inside?

But the helmet might still at least be an old one.
These horned demon face ones with the fixed position nasal guards are not 'war helmets', but I think some are at least old. I think a load came to the UK for the great exhibition of 1851.
The chainmail looks right to me. The link diameter, the brass links for decoration, the overall shape.
Cerjak, are the links butted or closed?

I think annother important question to ask is whether or not this helmet has a liner, remains of a liner, or anything resembeling attachment points for a liner. Personally, I have never seen a repro Indo Persian helmet with a liner other than a single layer of fabric glued to the underside as a protection from rust. So, a presence of proper padded liner or its remanants should settle this debate. In the mean time I still think it's a fairly modern piece

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th February 2012, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I agree with you on the Axe Stan. Its unusual for the shaft to be totally straight with no 'pommel'.

Cerjak, is the hanlde end hollow?Is there a thread inside?

But the helmet might still at least be an old one.
These horned demon face ones with the fixed position nasal guards are not 'war helmets', but I think some are at least old. I think a load came to the UK for the great exhibition of 1851.
The chainmail looks right to me. The link diameter, the brass links for decoration, the overall shape.
Cerjak, are the links butted or closed?

Forum Search !
Salaams Atlantia ~ These helmets look like parade items as discussed ... I have seen postcards with Persian horsemen riding about in the 1920s wearing all their regalia like lost Knights of Old..

Back to the axe conundrum~ I was searching for references and lo and behold on Forum Search ! See "Sikh soldier" thread called Nice Indo Persian Axe and see # 28 Atlantia post for the perfect example of Persian Saddle Axes... I believe from my reference Anthony North Islamic Arms and Armour.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

archer · 6th February 2012, 08:29 AM

Hi, I've seen several axes recently that also functioned as a gun. As you may have seen Katars with flintlock pistols mounted. Here is one multi axe.

Cerjak · 6th February 2012, 06:35 PM

Thank you all for your help ,this is some pics from chainmail looks and the inside from the helmet and somes pic too from a set helmet ,shield and one arm protection with a glove I had bought from an auction sale 2 years ago and all was from the same collection said from the XIX th century
I hope it will help.
Cerjak

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th February 2012, 07:49 PM

Salaams all~ ...all more or less the same vintage as late 19thC. early 20thC are technically Qajar Dynasty and are still collectibles and antiques though not war weapons... The same happened in Europe with suits of armour etc... It must have been incredible to see as late as the 1920s tribesmen roaming about fully kitted out in armour and equipments such as these. Nice pictures

shukran

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ariel · 6th February 2012, 08:18 PM

And. of course, only one bazuband:-)

Dom · 6th February 2012, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

The chainmail looks right to me. The link diameter, the brass links for decoration, the overall shape.

Hi
yes for the "chain-mail", it's an old one, adapted on an Indian helmet,
the doubt is patent in this case

just have a look here, plenty ... same model ;

here below a Qajar helmet, with his chain-mail,
it hasn't mask and horn, but it's a real, not a copy,
easy to see the difference of metal work

à +

Dom

Stan S. · 7th February 2012, 03:10 AM

Cerjak, I really like the last helmet pictured in your post. The one without horns but of a nice classical form with a tall spike on top and two plume holders.

By the way, I often see people displaying these helmets with peacock feathers in the plume holders. Do we know that thats what they were intended for? Why peacock feathers? And always why 2 (as opposed to 1 or 3 or 57 feathers)? Sorry to derail...

Dom · 7th February 2012, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan S.

Why peacock feathers? And always why 2 (as opposed to 1 or 3 or 57 feathers)? Sorry to derail...

Hi Stan
not easy to create a derailment ... with feathers

why peacock feathers ? because it's a Persian tradition, see explanations below, extracted from Internet

In Babylonia and Persia the Peacock is seen as a guardian to royalty,
and is often seen in engravings upon the thrones of royalty.

also

(quote on/Wikipedia sources)The Peacock Throne, called Takht-e Tâvus (Persian: تخت طاووس) in Persian,
is the name originally given to a Mughal throne of India,
which was later adopted and used to describe the thrones of the Persian emperors from Nader Shah Afshari and
erroneously to Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi whose throne was a reconstruction of the Achemenid throne. (quote off/Wikipedia sources)

Personally, I put back to back, two feathers, so that all sides it is good sense

à +

Dom

4th February 2012, 02:34 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	INDO PERSIAN TABAR AXE Hello everybody, I would like to know more about this axe How old could be ? early 19th or 20th C . Is it battle axe or parade axe ? I seems that a gun barrel was used to made this axe but I'm not sure. any help will be welcome. Regards Cerjak Attached Images

4th February 2012, 08:52 PM	#8
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	ok I don't like tourist items ,I have some helmets, sheld etc too and I hope they are not all made for tourist market because thy had cost me a lot... I somebody have some pics about from good indopersian helmet I will be happy to see. Regards Cerjak Attached Images

6th February 2012, 08:29 AM	#13
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Multi Axes Hi, I've seen several axes recently that also functioned as a gun. As you may have seen Katars with flintlock pistols mounted. Here is one multi axe. Attached Images

6th February 2012, 06:35 PM	#14
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Thank you all for your help ,this is some pics from chainmail looks and the inside from the helmet and somes pic too from a set helmet ,shield and one arm protection with a glove I had bought from an auction sale 2 years ago and all was from the same collection said from the XIX th century I hope it will help. Cerjak Attached Images

4th February 2012, 02:54 PM	#3
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	I concur on the Qajar.

4th February 2012, 04:01 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The crucial distinction between the real fighting axes and the parade/souvenir ones is the presence or absence of a wedged blade. The real ones had it, the souvenirs didn't. While there might be exceptions, no fighting axe would have a flat, thin head. Only in Africa :-) Agree with Qajar/ceremonial :-) attribution.

4th February 2012, 05:58 PM	#5
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Thank you Ibrahiim,Ariel & AJ 1356 for yours answers.there isn't any screw turns in the axe handle.So it should be parade axe. But could you explain me what means ceremonial axe ?Is it made for tourists ?In this case this axe will not have any interest.

4th February 2012, 06:40 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	During the Qajar era, Iran made frantic efforts to modernize their country in general and military in particular. Western-type weapons, bladed included, were imported and copied locally en masse. The old style weapons were discarded rapidly. Tabars, bazu-bands, shields, kula-khuds all became anachronistic. Thus, there was no reason to produce them for military use, but tey did look exotic! Instead, their cheap copies of non-fighting quality were manufactured for tourists, for parades, Tazieh performances and for export as souvenirs. The standard set of tin-iron kula-khud, shield with acid-etched or engraved decorative pics and a single bazu-band was a popular object of Western home decor ( akin to Victorian copies of European armour). Add there the so-called "revival swords" ( suspiciously similar to the newer Sudanese kaskaras with thin blades and koranic acid-etched inscriptions all over them), khanjars with ivory handles and Shah-Nameh or just pornographic motives and tabars with thin flat blades, and you get the idea. Before the oil era, this scrap metal and carpets were, I suspect, the main sources of export coming from Iran. Having come through a multitude of dealers and pawn shops, they are now flooding the e-bay. I would not touch them. Well, maybe just a carpet :-)

4th February 2012, 10:56 PM	#9
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Sorry to dissapoint you, Cerjak, but that helmet is most definetely a tourist item and likely of a fairly recent manufacture (late 20th century). The telltale signs are a non-sliding (welded) nasal and the "horns" - not a very practical feature to carry on your head in battle Your axe on the other hand, looks like a good period example (mid to late 19th century). While it mostly resembles a parade weapon, it's less lavish than usual decoration makes me believe that it could have more functionality than just a display item. The haft is not likely to be a made out of a barrel. These Persian axes are known for having hollow metal hafts almost exclusively. The lack of any finale at the botom makes me think that it was designed to conseal a stiletto, which appears to be missing now. Seeing any internal threading at the end of the haft would verify that. Overall I think it is a lovely axe that would compliment any collection of Indo Persan arms.

6th February 2012, 07:49 PM	#15
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all~ ...all more or less the same vintage as late 19thC. early 20thC are technically Qajar Dynasty and are still collectibles and antiques though not war weapons... The same happened in Europe with suits of armour etc... It must have been incredible to see as late as the 1920s tribesmen roaming about fully kitted out in armour and equipments such as these. Nice pictures shukran Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

6th February 2012, 08:18 PM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And. of course, only one bazuband:-)

7th February 2012, 03:10 AM	#18
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Cerjak, I really like the last helmet pictured in your post. The one without horns but of a nice classical form with a tall spike on top and two plume holders. By the way, I often see people displaying these helmets with peacock feathers in the plume holders. Do we know that thats what they were intended for? Why peacock feathers? And always why 2 (as opposed to 1 or 3 or 57 feathers)? Sorry to derail...