Kindjal and tulvar for review...

hbhansen · 21st December 2011, 10:22 PM

Hi I'm new here, so take good care of me

I recently bought a lot of 3 "tourist" blades. A fantasi sword, a tulwar and Kindjal/qama. The kindjal is the reason why I bought the lot. I think it is a genuine late 1800's dagestani style kindjal that got mixed up with som junk. Unfortunately there is no scabbard for it.
This is only my second kindjal, so I'm no expert. Please if anyone can help me confirm the authentity of this one, I would be very greatful.
The tulwar is the first one I ever hold. First I thought "tourist", but then again, it's stamped, and it looks like it has been sharpened a few times and used too ???

Thanks alot
hbhansen

hbhansen · 21st December 2011, 10:43 PM

And here are some pics of the tulwar...

Stan S. · 21st December 2011, 10:54 PM

Well, it looks old and ment for business. Unfortunately, I can't say much else. Would love to see some pictures of the tulwar

hbhansen · 22nd December 2011, 12:45 AM

And here are some pics of the tulwar...

Dom · 22nd December 2011, 01:52 AM

Welcome "hbhansen"
it's not realy the field where I'm feel me comfortable, but after have saw many blades,
your's don't looks at all, from; some "bazaar" for tourist
not very old, have the characteristics of dagestani style kindjal
but reduce of 100 years your age estimation, as per as my point of view ± 1900

any way, nice kindjal

à +

Dom

Stan S. · 22nd December 2011, 02:51 PM

Thats a nice fighting tulwar from Rajasthan, most likely Bundi region. The mark of a katar on the blade corresponds with the official stamp/seal of the Bundi municipality and is often seen on tulwar blades dating back from 19th century. This does not necesserily make the blade "Bundi" but gives a strong indication that it might be. The hilt appears to be nickel plated brass, and if so, could be a later addition. I don't believe that nickel plating was widely spread in the East until the 1920s or later but would encourage more knowledible members to correct me on this one

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd December 2011, 05:51 PM

Dav HB og velkommen til Vikingsword.

I can’t help you with the kindjal’s as I collect Indian weapons, but the tulwar seems to have an old blade, well used and sharpened. Have you tried a magnet on the hilt? The hilt is likely to be newer than the blade, or maybe decorated/plated at a later date.

The search button can help you a lot, so don't forget to use it

.

Regards

Jens

hbhansen · 22nd December 2011, 11:07 PM

Thanks guys ! You've been a great help !
Looks like I managed to post the tulwar pics twice

The last pic of the kindjal was posted to show the difference on the handles on my standard KKV-kindjal and the new one. The KKV fits my hand, but the new one is very small. Is that because the KKV is a standard issued Zlatoust factory made fighting kindjal and the new one is more like a parade/dress model ?
I will try to hold a magnet to the hilt when I get back home from my christmas vacation....
The kindjal is a keeper, but I think I will let the tulwar go, what would be a fair price for this one ?
Best
HB

hbhansen · 22nd December 2011, 11:14 PM

Hi Jens
Used the search button and found one of your threads:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=tulwar+katar
Looks like mine is a brilliant example of a tulwar that has obviously been sharpened many times, but yet by a gentle hand, since there are no serious grinding marks.
Very informative thread !

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Dav HB og velkommen til Vikingsword.

I can’t help you with the kindjal’s as I collect Indian weapons, but the tulwar seems to have an old blade, well used and sharpened. Have you tried a magnet on the hilt? The hilt is likely to be newer than the blade, or maybe decorated/plated at a later date.

The search button can help you a lot, so don't forget to use it

.

Regards

Jens

delor · 26th December 2011, 02:10 PM

Interesting blade. It seems to me that there might have been some writing or decorative pattern on it.
Also, the steel structure should be investigated. It doesn't look to be only old corrosion, might be wootz as well.

Jens Nordlunde · 26th December 2011, 06:05 PM

On this forum there is someone who has/have had a sword blade with a katar and a trisula stamp. I have a picture, but can't show it as I can't ask the owner, but it is dated June 27th 2007, so maybe a search will give a result.
Jens

katana · 27th December 2011, 04:32 PM

I would definately etch the blade of the Tulwar.....I too, see some 'activity' in the surface of the blade

Kind Regards David

Jim McDougall · 27th December 2011, 06:58 PM

It is great to see this 'katar' stamp resurface, and we did have some great discussion concerning this in 2007, it seems in most cases this deep stamp appeared accompanied by a trisula. I think it will be OK to post the images from that thread Jens so I will add it as shown from a khanda hilted sabre...in it appears to be were rehilted with tulwar blade carrying this stamp.

Regarding the katar stamp. it seems that the Bundi attribution to the blade on this weapon by Stan may be quite well placed. In 2010, in his outstanding article, "The Royal Katars of Bundi" ('South Asian Studies 25), Jens notes that "...the katar has been used on some Bundi coins and stamps.On the coins it was not used as a mintmark, but as an emblem on the obverse side, so the katar must have had a meaning to the ruling family". The distinct use of the this weapon on the coinage suggests that symbolically it is quite possible the same type stamp of the katar may have been used on weapons as an arsenal type stamp. Though not proven, this does seem quite plausible, and both Jens and Nidhin Olikara have shown in several cases where the use of nusimatic devices have been instrumental in identifying markings on weapons.

In the discussions in 2007, I had been researching the possible source of the katar marking and suggested that possibly it may have been associated with the Kattees people of Gujerat from references in Egerton (1880. p.137). The author cites "Translations of Lit. Soc. of Bombay" 1813 and describes the use of the katar symbolically in oaths, contracts and all such matters as legally binding by its mark. My thoughts were that perhaps this mark of the katar when placed upon any important document might be used in weapons as well. In retrospect of course, the subsequent work of Jens in the Bundi references seems far more likely, and I have noted the Kattee reference simply to note that aspect previously covered.

Atlantia · 27th December 2011, 07:51 PM

HI hbhansen

Welcome to the forums. Very nice weapons you have shown us.

I'd personally test etch the kindjal blades too, they seem like quality examples!
You never know what might just possibly be in there.........

Best
Gene

hbhansen · 28th December 2011, 11:17 PM

Hi again

Thanks for all your answers !

Today I tried etching both the tulwar and the kindjal. Nothing appeared

Then I tried holding it into strong light, at different angels, to see if i could spot somthing, but still nothing appears...
I also held a magnet to the hilt and it was not magnetic.

Best regards
Henrik

Rick · 29th December 2011, 04:05 AM

Uhm, this sword deserves a thread of its own in the European Forum, please .

hbhansen · 29th December 2011, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Uhm, this sword deserves a thread of its own in the European Forum, please .

You're right Rick. I've just removed it.

Best

21st December 2011, 10:22 PM	#1
hbhansen Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Denmark Posts: 89	Kindjal and tulwar for review... Hi I'm new here, so take good care of me I recently bought a lot of 3 "tourist" blades. A fantasi sword, a tulwar and Kindjal/qama. The kindjal is the reason why I bought the lot. I think it is a genuine late 1800's dagestani style kindjal that got mixed up with som junk. Unfortunately there is no scabbard for it. This is only my second kindjal, so I'm no expert. Please if anyone can help me confirm the authentity of this one, I would be very greatful. The tulwar is the first one I ever hold. First I thought "tourist", but then again, it's stamped, and it looks like it has been sharpened a few times and used too ??? Thanks alot hbhansen Attached Images Last edited by hbhansen; 21st December 2011 at 11:27 PM.

21st December 2011, 10:43 PM	#2
hbhansen Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Denmark Posts: 89	And here are some pics of the tulwar... Attached Images

22nd December 2011, 12:45 AM	#4
hbhansen Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Denmark Posts: 89	And here are some pics of the tulwar... Attached Images

26th December 2011, 02:10 PM	#10
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Interesting blade. It seems to me that there might have been some writing or decorative pattern on it. Also, the steel structure should be investigated. It doesn't look to be only old corrosion, might be wootz as well. Attached Images

27th December 2011, 06:58 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	It is great to see this 'katar' stamp resurface, and we did have some great discussion concerning this in 2007, it seems in most cases this deep stamp appeared accompanied by a trisula. I think it will be OK to post the images from that thread Jens so I will add it as shown from a khanda hilted sabre...in it appears to be were rehilted with tulwar blade carrying this stamp. Regarding the katar stamp. it seems that the Bundi attribution to the blade on this weapon by Stan may be quite well placed. In 2010, in his outstanding article, "The Royal Katars of Bundi" ('South Asian Studies 25), Jens notes that "...the katar has been used on some Bundi coins and stamps.On the coins it was not used as a mintmark, but as an emblem on the obverse side, so the katar must have had a meaning to the ruling family". The distinct use of the this weapon on the coinage suggests that symbolically it is quite possible the same type stamp of the katar may have been used on weapons as an arsenal type stamp. Though not proven, this does seem quite plausible, and both Jens and Nidhin Olikara have shown in several cases where the use of nusimatic devices have been instrumental in identifying markings on weapons. In the discussions in 2007, I had been researching the possible source of the katar marking and suggested that possibly it may have been associated with the Kattees people of Gujerat from references in Egerton (1880. p.137). The author cites "Translations of Lit. Soc. of Bombay" 1813 and describes the use of the katar symbolically in oaths, contracts and all such matters as legally binding by its mark. My thoughts were that perhaps this mark of the katar when placed upon any important document might be used in weapons as well. In retrospect of course, the subsequent work of Jens in the Bundi references seems far more likely, and I have noted the Kattee reference simply to note that aspect previously covered. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 27th December 2011 at 07:21 PM.

21st December 2011, 10:54 PM	#3
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Well, it looks old and ment for business. Unfortunately, I can't say much else. Would love to see some pictures of the tulwar

22nd December 2011, 01:52 AM	#5
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Welcome "hbhansen" it's not realy the field where I'm feel me comfortable, but after have saw many blades, your's don't looks at all, from; some "bazaar" for tourist not very old, have the characteristics of dagestani style kindjal but reduce of 100 years your age estimation, as per as my point of view ± 1900 any way, nice kindjal à + Dom

22nd December 2011, 02:51 PM	#6
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Thats a nice fighting tulwar from Rajasthan, most likely Bundi region. The mark of a katar on the blade corresponds with the official stamp/seal of the Bundi municipality and is often seen on tulwar blades dating back from 19th century. This does not necesserily make the blade "Bundi" but gives a strong indication that it might be. The hilt appears to be nickel plated brass, and if so, could be a later addition. I don't believe that nickel plating was widely spread in the East until the 1920s or later but would encourage more knowledible members to correct me on this one

22nd December 2011, 05:51 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Dav HB og velkommen til Vikingsword. I can’t help you with the kindjal’s as I collect Indian weapons, but the tulwar seems to have an old blade, well used and sharpened. Have you tried a magnet on the hilt? The hilt is likely to be newer than the blade, or maybe decorated/plated at a later date. The search button can help you a lot, so don't forget to use it . Regards Jens

22nd December 2011, 11:07 PM	#8
hbhansen Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Denmark Posts: 89	Thanks guys ! You've been a great help ! Looks like I managed to post the tulwar pics twice The last pic of the kindjal was posted to show the difference on the handles on my standard KKV-kindjal and the new one. The KKV fits my hand, but the new one is very small. Is that because the KKV is a standard issued Zlatoust factory made fighting kindjal and the new one is more like a parade/dress model ? I will try to hold a magnet to the hilt when I get back home from my christmas vacation.... The kindjal is a keeper, but I think I will let the tulwar go, what would be a fair price for this one ? Best HB

26th December 2011, 06:05 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	On this forum there is someone who has/have had a sword blade with a katar and a trisula stamp. I have a picture, but can't show it as I can't ask the owner, but it is dated June 27th 2007, so maybe a search will give a result. Jens

27th December 2011, 04:32 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I would definately etch the blade of the Tulwar.....I too, see some 'activity' in the surface of the blade Kind Regards David

27th December 2011, 07:51 PM	#14
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	HI hbhansen Welcome to the forums. Very nice weapons you have shown us. I'd personally test etch the kindjal blades too, they seem like quality examples! You never know what might just possibly be in there......... Best Gene Attached Images Last edited by Atlantia; 27th December 2011 at 08:34 PM.

28th December 2011, 11:17 PM	#15
hbhansen Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Denmark Posts: 89	Hi again Thanks for all your answers ! Today I tried etching both the tulwar and the kindjal. Nothing appeared Then I tried holding it into strong light, at different angels, to see if i could spot somthing, but still nothing appears... I also held a magnet to the hilt and it was not magnetic. Best regards Henrik Last edited by hbhansen; 29th December 2011 at 10:31 PM.

29th December 2011, 04:05 AM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Uhm, this sword deserves a thread of its own in the European Forum, please .