Earliest known twist core blades outside West-Europe

[Richard R.]

Hello,

I'm resarching for an essay about the renaissance of pattern welded West-European (i.e. France, Italy, Germany) blades which were made in an attempt to copy the "Wootz"-Blades from the late 17th Century onwards.

I would like to find out the following information about twisted core blades and/ or patterned blades produced through deliberate use of welding techniques which originate outside Western European countries as i.e.:

- Ottoman Empire (Turkey)
- Persia
- Arabian Countries
- North Africa
- Russia
- Hungary
- India
- China
- Philippines
- Indonesia
- other South Asian countries
- other non Western-European countries

Information I’m looking for about the above mentioned blades :

1) The earliest, documented, example of this type of blade for each country.

2) The said documentation. Any photos or drawings if in existance.

3) The kind (sword, spear, dagger, etc.) of blade and the term used to describe or name this type of blade in its’ country of origin at the time of production. i.e. Not the modern terminology – like « mechanical damascus blade »

This information would help me to compare the developement of such blades with those of Western Europe. Up til know I get the impression that most of these earliest pattern welded blades date from the second half of the 18th Century.


Thanks for all contributions.

Richard

[Rick]

Have fun with our search function; I'm sure it will prove useful in your quest .

[Lee]

I developed an interest in twist core (pattern-welded) blades fairly early in my collecting 'career' and so I have accumulated a number of examples. At one time I naively believed there had to be a continuous path of the technique from medieval Europe, but I since have realized that it is, in the end, a relatively simple technique that any iron working culture will clearly discover at the forge. I do perceive that there is still a qualitative difference in the patterns in the medieval European material from the later ethnographic material, and I presume this arises from difference in material or in how the component rods were constructed. My 'ethnographic' examples, I believe dating from the 18th and 19th centuries, seem to follow the same patterns as are seen in modern bladesmith's work and in the earlier European revival of the technique.

I have an Ottoman rifle barrel obviously built up of twist core rods and dated to the 17th century when the previous owner lent it for a museum exhibition. I thought I had posted pictures on the forums in years past, but I have not found the correct keywords to bring it up if I had. I believe that such Ottoman barrels are found from at least the century before this and so, this may be the 'origin' in Ottoman work.

We know the medieval European work almost exclusively from archaeology; and not what will have come in to our collections from examples well-preserved and cared for indoors. Hopefully, some members will be familiar with local archaeological work for some of the 'ethnographic' types and be able to assist with an earliest date for those types.

Outside of keris and nihonto, the other issue is that we often do not know what we have. One yataghan of mine has an inscribed date in the 18th century; I believe another to be older. I suspect my 'protobudiak' may be otherwise be my earliest example; but as yet, I have no framework upon which to accurately date the blade.

I will ponder this and try to bring a few examples up on the board for discussion.

[Richard R.]

Hello Lee

Up till now I have not found pictures or documents form Yataghans with twist core blades dated before 1770. Do you think that your second Yataghan is to be dated before 1770?

How old you think that your protobudiak is?

Thanks for you help.

"Merry Christmas" from Switzerland!

Richard

P.S.: I' m sorry about my English and I hope everybody can understand me.

[Lee]

Originally Posted by Richard R.

Do you think that your second Yataghan is to be dated before 1770?

I had only viewed the mark on the older yataghan in abstraction previously, but if we accept the bottom line in the cartouche on the lower blade as the date 1204 (=1799, just barely 18th century) and interpret the similar region of the upper cartouche as being an honest date, then 1001 (=1592).

Originally Posted by Richard R.

How old you think that your protobudiak is?

I wish I knew. I am going to guess that the mounts were serviceable and in current 'style' when the spear left home, likely about a hundred years ago. When I dismounted the blade, there was no evidence of fresh rust in the mastic. However, the tang has heavy stable dark oxidation, just as I have observed in older (koto) Japanese swords, so I suspect this spearhead was far from new when last mounted. I have tried to lure the forum community into trying to work out geography versus chronology in the styles of these lance heads and that should ultimately be possible, but I doubt there will be reliable absolute dating unless some new technology emerges.

Originally Posted by Richard R.

"Merry Christmas" from Switzerland!

Vielen Dank und gleichfalls.

[Richard R.]

Thank you for the very good pictures. Could you send me pictures where I can see the whole Yataghans? I attache some pictures of a yataghan of my pattern-blade-collection. I need some help. Any ideas about the age and origin of this blade?

You also can find two pictures of a polished 9th Century twist core Western-European Spearhead to compare with your Eastern Spearhead.

Regards

Richard

[Lee]

As requested, an overall picture of the yataghans (caution - the order is reversed from the close up of the cartouches above) and also of an inscription on the newer blade.

Unfortunately, I am no yataghan expert, having only collected a few with good examples of the twist-core work, so we will have to rely on other members to assist with the age and origin of your example.

Your winged spearhead is most attractive and it is nice to see the pattern-welding brought back to its former glory. Presented in polish, the nature of the bands of twist core is very reminiscent of what we are seeing on the yataghans.

I trust that you are familiar with Stefan Mäder's work in applying the Japanese style polish to reveal features in medieval steel.

[chregu]

sali richi
ich begrüsse dich recht herzlich hier im Forum
wir kennen uns. smile
gruss chregu

[Richard R.]

Hello Lee

Thank you for the pictures.

Originally Posted by Lee

I trust that you are familiar with Stefan Mäder's work in applying the Japanese style polish to reveal features in medieval steel.

Yes I studied his book (German Edition). I think it's one of the best researched publication regarding the structure of early medieval European blades made from from "bloomery iron" and the question if and how they have been polished.

Regards, Richard

P.S.: Hallo Chregu, Schöne Festtage!