Wilah from? - Page 3

Harley · 9th December 2011, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Do you have any images of a cenangan that you can copy? What you have produced is already very close.

I have been searching for it, and found 4 pic' s here on the forum, but the ones that i see here have a lot of beams over the entire hilt, or is that a sort of free style?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7035

Sajen · 9th December 2011, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Very very nice . What kind of wood (is root?)

Hello Marco,

thank you.

I still think that it is gembal jati (teak burl wood).

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 9th December 2011, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harley

I have been searching for it, and found 4 pic' s here on the forum, but the ones that i see here have a lot of beams over the entire hilt, or is that a sort of free style?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7035

Hi Harley,

I think that the both hilts from this thread are recent.

Regards,

Detlef

Harley · 9th December 2011, 08:32 PM

Thanks Detlef,

Do you know where i can find a picture of a cenangan?

regards,
Ben

Sajen · 9th December 2011, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harley

Thanks Detlef,

Do you know where i can find a picture of a cenangan?

regards,
Ben

I will look for, let me time until tomorrow. But maybe someone more fast as I am?

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 9th December 2011, 11:11 PM

The cenangan form is scarce. I suspect it is a pretty recent form, and a development and simplification of the gerantim form.

The two cenangan in Harley's link are recent, and the only photos I could find of cenangan hilts are also over-blown recent ones.

Essentially, the cenangan is the gerantim without the sprout on top.

Pictured is a gerantim --- with sprout--- and the same hilt with the sprout painted out, which makes it a cenangan.

Ben, this would be an easy hilt for you to use as a model:- reduce the raised parts that I commented on previously, and give them a bit of a curve, and you've just about done the job. The checkering is not necessary, this is the only Bali hilt I've seen that had checkering.

Re the wood:- yes, it is jati gembol.

Harley · 9th December 2011, 11:40 PM

I am glad I'm not the only one that couldn't find it

Yes the gerantim is close to what i have now, and the rest is easy to adjust.
But now I know what it looks like, i have found this picture, is that the cenangan?

A. G. Maisey · 9th December 2011, 11:46 PM

Yes, but modern and not particularly good quality.

Harley · 10th December 2011, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, but modern and not particularly good quality.

It wouldn't be my choice either, but isn't the gerantim also more common on Lombok?
If not i am going for the gerantim.

Thanks Mr Maisey.

A. G. Maisey · 10th December 2011, 01:19 AM

No, gerantim was not more common on Lombok. In past times it was a hilt normally used by the nobility of Bali, most especially in the form which was wrapped with woven gold.

Ben, you cannot convert your present almost cenangan into a gerantim, because then the proportions will definitely be wrong. If you want to do gerantim you'll need to start again and take account of the sprout on top, however, a gerantim out of plain wood seems to me to just a little unfitting.

You could bind what you have with twine and have a loncengan, but although these are not out of place on Bali, they were more common on Lombok.

Or you can slightly modify what you have a finish up with a pretty acceptable cenangan.

Harley · 10th December 2011, 01:38 AM

I am sorry Mr Maisey, but i meant the gerantim that you adjusted, without the sprout, and there was my mistake, then is was a cenangan

Maybe i start again with a new one, and make the top, middle, en bottom apart,
that way i always can change the proportions, and i think it's nicer with a difference in grain.
But we'll see.

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 10th December 2011, 02:20 AM

Thanks Ben. Understood.

Jean · 10th December 2011, 07:09 PM

Some more specimens of cenangan style hilts having some age.
Best regards

David · 10th December 2011, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Some more specimens of cenangan style hilts having some age.
Best regards

Jean, why do you believe these specimens have some age?

Harley · 10th December 2011, 09:11 PM

Thanks Jean,

They are much better looking then the ones i found.
In the last 2 pictures you can see swastika's in the engraving!

regards,
Ben

Sajen · 10th December 2011, 09:22 PM

Here two more, again taken from the book "Keris Bali Bersejarah".

Jean · 10th December 2011, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Jean, why do you believe these specimens have some age?

Hehe, just because I bought them more than 15 years ago and they were in the same condition as today (used)...

Of course I don't mean that they are old, but at least 20 to 30 years.
Regards

Jean · 10th December 2011, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harley

Thanks Jean,

They are much better looking then the ones i found.
In the last 2 pictures you can see swastika's in the engraving!

regards,
Ben

You are right about the engraved swastika Hindu motif which is common in Bali/ Lombok. This polychrome wooden hilt is part of an old family kris from Lombok.
The second hilt made from bone has a turtle skin cover, and the first one is made from bone and black horn.
Best regards
Jean

Harley · 10th December 2011, 10:45 PM

Thank you Detlef,

The one on the right is very nice!

Jean,

It was kind a strange to see that, but now i get it, thanks for the explanation!

regards,
Ben

David · 10th December 2011, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hehe, just because I bought them more than 15 years ago and they were in the same condition as today (used)...

Of course I don't mean that they are old, but at least 20 to 30 years.
Regards

Fair enough Jean, but that would make them fairly contemporary in my book.

David · 10th December 2011, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

You are right about the engraved swastika Hindu motif which is common in Bali/ Lombok. This polychrome wooden hilt is part of an old family kris from Lombok.

It is my understanding that the swastika is considered a symbol of Ganesha in Hindu practice.

A. G. Maisey · 11th December 2011, 12:53 AM

Actually Ganesh adopted the svastika as one of his symbols.

The symbol itself has existed in Hindu belief for very much longer than Ganesh, and in Hindu belief generally it is understood as a positive sign; since Ganesh is the diety who is concerned with beginnings and success, it is fitting that this symbol should have been adopted for use by Ganesh.

Ganesh has probably only existed as a Hindu deity since around the 3rd or 4th century current era, and the sect of Ganapatya where Ganesh is recognised as the supreme deity did not arise until about the 800's or 900's.

In Hindu belief we say "svastika", not "swastika". The root is Sanscrit:- "asti" which means "it is", a positive affirmation. I've forgotten the "su" and "ka" meaings, but I think "su" might be an intensifier, and "ka" indicates the word form.

tunggulametung · 11th December 2011, 07:15 AM

Hello, this swastika ornamentation is more commonly known as "patra Cina" in Bali. Thanks

Harley · 11th December 2011, 09:45 PM

Now guys, this is where i am now, the hilt is to thin, the length is in my opinion ok, also i think there must be some engraving on the middle piece, or some raised sections like the picture on the right from Detlef, so i must make a new one.
I've made sheath dark because i didn't like the light color with the pelet, but i can adjust it to lighter or darker.

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 11th December 2011, 10:00 PM

I've seen many genuine Bali ensembles that are worse than this. Ben. You've done a good job.

If you feel that you need to do the hilt again, may I suggest that you very carefully study the proportions of any published examples you can find and try to copy those proportions? My feeling is that hilt may be a whisker too long.

Harley · 11th December 2011, 10:23 PM

Thanks Mr Maisey, that is a very big compliment!

When i looked at it in real live, it seemed OK to me, but in the picture i does look
a bit to long.
It's no problem to get the proportions of the picture when you got the height,
but i now have the reference of this one, and a couple of nice examples!
If i get it right i shall post a picture here.
Thanks everyone for helping out!

regards,
Ben

Sajen · 11th December 2011, 10:44 PM

Hi Harley,

great job you have done!

The handle look a little bit to big/long but still ok!

Regards,

Detlef

sirek · 11th December 2011, 10:48 PM

Very nice result,

Harley · 11th December 2011, 11:18 PM

Thanks Guys,

Kind of stupid of me, i had made this hilt in sections, now i have shorted it a bit, let me now what you think.
I am still gonna make a new one, but if this is more in the direction, it's easier to get the proportion.

regards,
Ben

By the way, this is not the original blade, thats why it don't correspond with the middle

Sajen · 12th December 2011, 07:38 PM

Look much better!

Regards,

Detlef

9th December 2011, 08:32 PM	#64
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Thanks Detlef, Do you know where i can find a picture of a cenangan? regards, Ben Last edited by Harley; 9th December 2011 at 09:42 PM.

9th December 2011, 11:11 PM	#66
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	The cenangan form is scarce. I suspect it is a pretty recent form, and a development and simplification of the gerantim form. The two cenangan in Harley's link are recent, and the only photos I could find of cenangan hilts are also over-blown recent ones. Essentially, the cenangan is the gerantim without the sprout on top. Pictured is a gerantim --- with sprout--- and the same hilt with the sprout painted out, which makes it a cenangan. Ben, this would be an easy hilt for you to use as a model:- reduce the raised parts that I commented on previously, and give them a bit of a curve, and you've just about done the job. The checkering is not necessary, this is the only Bali hilt I've seen that had checkering. Re the wood:- yes, it is jati gembol. Attached Images

9th December 2011, 11:40 PM	#67
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	I am glad I'm not the only one that couldn't find it Yes the gerantim is close to what i have now, and the rest is easy to adjust. But now I know what it looks like, i have found this picture, is that the cenangan? Attached Images

10th December 2011, 07:09 PM	#73
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Some more specimens of cenangan style hilts having some age. Best regards Attached Images

10th December 2011, 09:22 PM	#76
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,801	Here two more, again taken from the book "Keris Bali Bersejarah". Attached Images

9th December 2011, 11:46 PM	#68
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	Yes, but modern and not particularly good quality.

10th December 2011, 01:19 AM	#70
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	No, gerantim was not more common on Lombok. In past times it was a hilt normally used by the nobility of Bali, most especially in the form which was wrapped with woven gold. Ben, you cannot convert your present almost cenangan into a gerantim, because then the proportions will definitely be wrong. If you want to do gerantim you'll need to start again and take account of the sprout on top, however, a gerantim out of plain wood seems to me to just a little unfitting. You could bind what you have with twine and have a loncengan, but although these are not out of place on Bali, they were more common on Lombok. Or you can slightly modify what you have a finish up with a pretty acceptable cenangan.

10th December 2011, 01:38 AM	#71
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	I am sorry Mr Maisey, but i meant the gerantim that you adjusted, without the sprout, and there was my mistake, then is was a cenangan Maybe i start again with a new one, and make the top, middle, en bottom apart, that way i always can change the proportions, and i think it's nicer with a difference in grain. But we'll see. regards, Ben

10th December 2011, 02:20 AM	#72
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	Thanks Ben. Understood.

10th December 2011, 09:11 PM	#75
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Thanks Jean, They are much better looking then the ones i found. In the last 2 pictures you can see swastika's in the engraving! regards, Ben

10th December 2011, 10:45 PM	#79
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Thank you Detlef, The one on the right is very nice! Jean, It was kind a strange to see that, but now i get it, thanks for the explanation! regards, Ben

11th December 2011, 12:53 AM	#82
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	Actually Ganesh adopted the svastika as one of his symbols. The symbol itself has existed in Hindu belief for very much longer than Ganesh, and in Hindu belief generally it is understood as a positive sign; since Ganesh is the diety who is concerned with beginnings and success, it is fitting that this symbol should have been adopted for use by Ganesh. Ganesh has probably only existed as a Hindu deity since around the 3rd or 4th century current era, and the sect of Ganapatya where Ganesh is recognised as the supreme deity did not arise until about the 800's or 900's. In Hindu belief we say "svastika", not "swastika". The root is Sanscrit:- "asti" which means "it is", a positive affirmation. I've forgotten the "su" and "ka" meaings, but I think "su" might be an intensifier, and "ka" indicates the word form.

11th December 2011, 07:15 AM	#83
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Hello, this swastika ornamentation is more commonly known as "patra Cina" in Bali. Thanks

11th December 2011, 09:45 PM	#84
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Now guys, this is where i am now, the hilt is to thin, the length is in my opinion ok, also i think there must be some engraving on the middle piece, or some raised sections like the picture on the right from Detlef, so i must make a new one. I've made sheath dark because i didn't like the light color with the pelet, but i can adjust it to lighter or darker. regards, Ben Attached Images

11th December 2011, 10:00 PM	#85
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	I've seen many genuine Bali ensembles that are worse than this. Ben. You've done a good job. If you feel that you need to do the hilt again, may I suggest that you very carefully study the proportions of any published examples you can find and try to copy those proportions? My feeling is that hilt may be a whisker too long.

11th December 2011, 10:23 PM	#86
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Thanks Mr Maisey, that is a very big compliment! When i looked at it in real live, it seemed OK to me, but in the picture i does look a bit to long. It's no problem to get the proportions of the picture when you got the height, but i now have the reference of this one, and a couple of nice examples! If i get it right i shall post a picture here. Thanks everyone for helping out! regards, Ben Last edited by Harley; 11th December 2011 at 10:35 PM.

11th December 2011, 10:44 PM	#87
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,801	Hi Harley, great job you have done! The handle look a little bit to big/long but still ok! Regards, Detlef

11th December 2011, 10:48 PM	#88
sirek Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 169	Very nice result,

11th December 2011, 11:18 PM	#89
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Thanks Guys, Kind of stupid of me, i had made this hilt in sections, now i have shorted it a bit, let me now what you think. I am still gonna make a new one, but if this is more in the direction, it's easier to get the proportion. regards, Ben By the way, this is not the original blade, thats why it don't correspond with the middle Attached Images Last edited by Harley; 11th December 2011 at 11:33 PM.

12th December 2011, 07:38 PM	#90
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,801	Look much better! Regards, Detlef