Jalak Sangu Tumpeng

Karttikeya · 24th October 2011, 03:54 AM

Here I have attached a shared photograph for discussion. The dapur is Jalak Sangu Tumpeng, probably the keris was made in Majapahit period (Mpu Sendang Sedayu made?). I am looking forward your opinion.
Thanking you in advance

EDIT

Karttikeya, I have copied your picture and uploaded it to the site . Links of any kind are strongly discouraged; you will please upload your pictures to the forum site [ NO LINKS ] if you want them to be posted .
Neither I nor David have the time to do this . If you are unclear about the process please see the photo posting directions .
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631
Thank you .

Rick · 27th October 2011, 05:46 PM

I am surprised that no one has chosen to reply to this post .

ganjawulung · 27th October 2011, 06:23 PM

This Jalak Sangutumpeng in the picture, reminds me to the best jalak sangutumpeng picture I've seen in Musee de l'homme's book (Paris) some couple years ago. Picture below, the Musee de l'homme's jalak sangu tumpeng. I took reproduction from the museum's book some years ago...

Not so many jalak sangu tumpeng -- which has good 'garap' I've seen. Mostly, comes from supposed to be Mataram Senopaten (without pamor, but some with only very minimal pamor or "wulan-wulan" type pamor), and some of them supposed to be Majapahit tangguh, with very smooth, greyish-black blade...

Here is the example for comparison, Karttikeya...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 27th October 2011, 11:03 PM

Karttikeya, based upon what I can see in the image you have posted, I feel that many people would be prepared to classify this keris as Tangguh Majapahit.

It possesses many of the features of form that align with a Majapahit classification, but the ganja is too straight and thin to conform to that which is expected in a Majapahit keris. The other indicators that I can see do echo Majapahit, but as is usually the case with questions of tangguh, I am reluctant to commit myself to an opinion based upon an image on a computer screen. When I say that the features "echo Majapahit", to my eye, these features appear to have been executed by a maker who had knowledge of the form of the indicators in a Majapahit keris, but who perhaps had never seen one.

In respect of the concept of tangguh.

This is a system of classification that was developed for a specific purpose. In the case of keris classified as a tangguh of the recent past, say within the last 300 to 400 years, it is possible that there could be a high level of agreement between the designated tangguh, and the era from which the tangguh name is taken. In the case of keris from the distant past this agreement between designated tangguh and era of the same name, is very, very dubious.

However, as with most things to do with the keris, we are dealing with a belief system, so for anybody who believes that a keris that is classifiable as a particular tangguh, was made during the era of the same name, so be it. For that person, it was.

PenangsangII · 28th October 2011, 05:19 AM

With respect to Karttikeya's Jalak Sangu Tumpeng, I would opine it is a Mataram piece, most probably of Senopaten era, but with very significant Padjajaran outlook especially at the gandik...very slanting feature there (mboto rubuh)

Karttikeya · 28th October 2011, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I am surprised that no one has chosen to reply to this post .

Hi Rick, thank you for the first reply in my thread to trigger other comments. I did make a mistake by show up the link and I thought none is interested with this topic..Thank you Rick, anyway..

Karttikeya · 28th October 2011, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

This Jalak Sangutumpeng in the picture, reminds me to the best jalak sangutumpeng picture I've seen in Musee de l'homme's book (Paris) some couple years ago. Picture below, the Musee de l'homme's jalak sangu tumpeng. I took reproduction from the museum's book some years ago...

Not so many jalak sangu tumpeng -- which has good 'garap' I've seen. Mostly, comes from supposed to be Mataram Senopaten (without pamor, but some with only very minimal pamor or "wulan-wulan" type pamor), and some of them supposed to be Majapahit tangguh, with very smooth, greyish-black blade...

Here is the example for comparison, Karttikeya...

GANJAWULUNG

Pak Ganja, thank you for share this Jalak Sangu Tumpeng photograph..You mean my Jalak Sangu Tumpeng is considered good? Most the people classified this keris as tangguh Majapahit..What do you think?

Karttikeya · 28th October 2011, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Karttikeya, based upon what I can see in the image you have posted, I feel that many people would be prepared to classify this keris as Tangguh Majapahit.

It possesses many of the features of form that align with a Majapahit classification, but the ganja is too straight and thin to conform to that which is expected in a Majapahit keris. The other indicators that I can see do echo Majapahit, but as is usually the case with questions of tangguh, I am reluctant to commit myself to an opinion based upon an image on a computer screen. When I say that the features "echo Majapahit", to my eye, these features appear to have been executed by a maker who had knowledge of the form of the indicators in a Majapahit keris, but who perhaps had never seen one.

In respect of the concept of tangguh.

This is a system of classification that was developed for a specific purpose. In the case of keris classified as a tangguh of the recent past, say within the last 300 to 400 years, it is possible that there could be a high level of agreement between the designated tangguh, and the era from which the tangguh name is taken. In the case of keris from the distant past this agreement between designated tangguh and era of the same name, is very, very dubious.

However, as with most things to do with the keris, we are dealing with a belief system, so for anybody who believes that a keris that is classifiable as a particular tangguh, was made during the era of the same name, so be it. For that person, it was.

Mr. Alan, thank you for your such explanantions..by the way, based on its design this keris comes from later period of Majapahit or probably older than Majapahit? If you do not mind, kindly give an opinion about this keris..thank you

David · 28th October 2011, 07:07 AM

What i see is a nice old keris with a certain presence in not quite as old nice dress. It is a keris i would welcome in my own collection. Does the sheath appear to have been made specifically for this keris?

Karttikeya · 28th October 2011, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

What i see is a nice old keris with a certain presence in not quite as old nice dress. It is a keris i would welcome in my own collection. Does the sheath appear to have been made specifically for this keris?

Hi David, thanks for your appreciation..Yes, you are correct, I changed its original sheath because the original one has been damaged and bad appearance, heavily coated in thick oil and incense. Previously, this keris was claimed by the owner as Tumenggung (regent) Jogonegoro heirloom, that's why he treated this keris by offering incense and fragnance oil intensively, and actually hardly to remove it. After I got this keris, I think I need to change the sheath and more over to protect this keris from new rust.

A. G. Maisey · 28th October 2011, 08:56 AM

I'm sorry Penangsang, but that keris cannot be classified as any of the Mataram sub-divisions.Mataram Senopaten does not look even vaguely like this keris. Not in the smallest degree.

A dominant feature of a keris that may be classified as tangguh Mataram is that the blumbangan is square.

The blumbangan in the keris under discussion is bata adeg.

It cannot be classified as Mataram of any type.

Karttikeya · 29th October 2011, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'm sorry Penangsang, but that keris cannot be classified as any of the Mataram sub-divisions.Mataram Senopaten does not look even vaguely like this keris. Not in the smallest degree.

A dominant feature of a keris that may be classified as tangguh Mataram is that the blumbangan is square.

The blumbangan in the keris under discussion is bata adeg.

It cannot be classified as Mataram of any type.

Pak Alan, thank you for your explanation..By the way, you said most of the features are acceptable for Majapahit keris, however you said ganja is straight and thin to be classified as Majapahit keris. But I believe you have pre assumption regarding this keris tangguh anyway since you have handled thousands even millions of kerises. If you do not mind kindly value this keris personally..thank you

A. G. Maisey · 29th October 2011, 07:11 AM

I'm sorry Kartikeya, but I do not provide a valuation service, most especially from photographs.

However, there is one very easy way to determine a value:- it is the maximum a serious buyer is prepared to pay, and the minimum a serious seller is prepared to accept, where the two cannot agree, its somewhere in between these two figures.

My assessment of this keris was based upon what I have been taught, not only upon personal experience.

David · 29th October 2011, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karttikeya

Pak Alan, thank you for your explanation..By the way, you said most of the features are acceptable for Majapahit keris, however you said ganja is straight and thin to be classified as Majapahit keris. But I believe you have pre assumption regarding this keris tangguh anyway since you have handled thousands even millions of kerises. If you do not mind kindly value this keris personally..thank you

I must also point out that it is strictly forbidden to do value assessments on this forum. This is specified in the forum rules. If you have not read the rules i strongly suggest that you do so that you do not run afoul of the moderation team. Thanks....

Karttikeya · 29th October 2011, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I must also point out that it is strictly forbidden to do value assessments on this forum. This is specified in the forum rules. If you have not read the rules i strongly suggest that you do so that you do not run afoul of the moderation team. Thanks....

Sorry David, I do not exptected that it is stricly forbidden and I will not do request any assessments in the future. Thank you for your reminding..

Karttikeya · 14th December 2011, 07:11 AM

Hi all, I raise this thread again because I have some questions about warangka. Could anybody tell me what is warangka style of this blade? Does the warangka match its deder? If I change existing mendak to mandak kendhit Yogyakartan, whether it meets with both warangka and deder? Your advises would be appreciated.

24th October 2011, 03:54 AM	#1
Karttikeya Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 54	Jalak Sangu Tumpeng Here I have attached a shared photograph for discussion. The dapur is Jalak Sangu Tumpeng, probably the keris was made in Majapahit period (Mpu Sendang Sedayu made?). I am looking forward your opinion. Thanking you in advance EDIT Karttikeya, I have copied your picture and uploaded it to the site . Links of any kind are strongly discouraged; you will please upload your pictures to the forum site [ NO LINKS ] if you want them to be posted . Neither I nor David have the time to do this . If you are unclear about the process please see the photo posting directions . http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631 Thank you . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 24th October 2011 at 03:39 PM.

27th October 2011, 06:23 PM	#3
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	This Jalak Sangutumpeng in the picture, reminds me to the best jalak sangutumpeng picture I've seen in Musee de l'homme's book (Paris) some couple years ago. Picture below, the Musee de l'homme's jalak sangu tumpeng. I took reproduction from the museum's book some years ago... Not so many jalak sangu tumpeng -- which has good 'garap' I've seen. Mostly, comes from supposed to be Mataram Senopaten (without pamor, but some with only very minimal pamor or "wulan-wulan" type pamor), and some of them supposed to be Majapahit tangguh, with very smooth, greyish-black blade... Here is the example for comparison, Karttikeya... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

27th October 2011, 05:46 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I am surprised that no one has chosen to reply to this post .

27th October 2011, 11:03 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Karttikeya, based upon what I can see in the image you have posted, I feel that many people would be prepared to classify this keris as Tangguh Majapahit. It possesses many of the features of form that align with a Majapahit classification, but the ganja is too straight and thin to conform to that which is expected in a Majapahit keris. The other indicators that I can see do echo Majapahit, but as is usually the case with questions of tangguh, I am reluctant to commit myself to an opinion based upon an image on a computer screen. When I say that the features "echo Majapahit", to my eye, these features appear to have been executed by a maker who had knowledge of the form of the indicators in a Majapahit keris, but who perhaps had never seen one. In respect of the concept of tangguh. This is a system of classification that was developed for a specific purpose. In the case of keris classified as a tangguh of the recent past, say within the last 300 to 400 years, it is possible that there could be a high level of agreement between the designated tangguh, and the era from which the tangguh name is taken. In the case of keris from the distant past this agreement between designated tangguh and era of the same name, is very, very dubious. However, as with most things to do with the keris, we are dealing with a belief system, so for anybody who believes that a keris that is classifiable as a particular tangguh, was made during the era of the same name, so be it. For that person, it was.

28th October 2011, 05:19 AM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	With respect to Karttikeya's Jalak Sangu Tumpeng, I would opine it is a Mataram piece, most probably of Senopaten era, but with very significant Padjajaran outlook especially at the gandik...very slanting feature there (mboto rubuh)

28th October 2011, 07:07 AM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	What i see is a nice old keris with a certain presence in not quite as old nice dress. It is a keris i would welcome in my own collection. Does the sheath appear to have been made specifically for this keris?

28th October 2011, 08:56 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	I'm sorry Penangsang, but that keris cannot be classified as any of the Mataram sub-divisions.Mataram Senopaten does not look even vaguely like this keris. Not in the smallest degree. A dominant feature of a keris that may be classified as tangguh Mataram is that the blumbangan is square. The blumbangan in the keris under discussion is bata adeg. It cannot be classified as Mataram of any type.

29th October 2011, 07:11 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	I'm sorry Kartikeya, but I do not provide a valuation service, most especially from photographs. However, there is one very easy way to determine a value:- it is the maximum a serious buyer is prepared to pay, and the minimum a serious seller is prepared to accept, where the two cannot agree, its somewhere in between these two figures. My assessment of this keris was based upon what I have been taught, not only upon personal experience.

14th December 2011, 07:11 AM	#16
Karttikeya Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 54	Hi all, I raise this thread again because I have some questions about warangka. Could anybody tell me what is warangka style of this blade? Does the warangka match its deder? If I change existing mendak to mandak kendhit Yogyakartan, whether it meets with both warangka and deder? Your advises would be appreciated.