A Bugis keris for comments - Page 2

rasdan · 14th March 2005, 11:36 AM

Quote:

But this gold keris is dressed new.

How new do u presume Blu? I heard that the wire works like that would at least be 100 years old.

Raja Muda · 14th March 2005, 11:47 AM

Hi RSword,

I must say I'm still drooling over the first Bugis keris you posted. Just out of curiosity, is the batang covered in gold, gilded silver or brass. How old is the keris and who happens to be the lucky owner. Truly a blade to die for!

BluErf · 14th March 2005, 12:30 PM

I reckon the gold work to be 20th century work, which if we really stretch it back, would be about 100years, but maybe the middle ground of 50years is more likely.

The reason why I think the gold work is new is because we don't see similarly elaborately gold-worked Malay/Bugis examples on older pieces in books. There are gold pendok and pendokos, but not with all these gold filigree, and so much of it. I always have the idea that pre-20th century kerises wear gold a lot more sparingly than post-20th century equivalents. Also, the older gold kerises use lower-purity gold (9-14k) whereas the examples we see in the pics here are unabashedly high carat shiny yellow gold.

rahman · 14th March 2005, 01:49 PM

Still with the tapak kuda hilt -- I would imagine that, given the same geographical and cultural milieu (S and E Sumatra), the tapak kuda would have been a logical accessory than another design on the other side of the mountains, as it were.

Pak Rasdan can solve this mystery -- can you show a shot of the top of the hilt? Or maybe you can tell us if it's a tapak kuda.

Whose golden keris is that anyway? Sultan of Selangor? Or, as my imagination runs wild, is that the elusive golden keris salvaged from the Flora del Mel?

DAHenkel · 14th March 2005, 01:58 PM

Alamak! Rahman, tapak kuda lah...mana ada kaki kuda punya hulu sih?

I'd say that piece has the most recent goldwork though. It lacks the finess of some ofthe earlier work. I'm going to have to disagree with Blu on the goldwork of Rsword's piece though. I'm thinking more mid-19th c. By 1900 most of the Sultan's were under Colonial domination, there was a precipitous decline in the quality of - especially - high end keris and the Raja Raja went off and became good little Westernized puppets, spending thier money on motorcars, waterford crystal and Gordon's gin.

There's a similar example in Jensen - attributed to an Acehnese prince but clearly Straits in origin - I can't remember if its dated and I don't have a copy of the book so maybe someone can look it up - if I'm not wrong it was mid-19th. RSword's other piece also strikes me as S. Sumatran Bugis in origin. The blade especially. The dress is about as generically "Bugis" as you could get. Someday I'm going to get off my butt and take a trip down through Siak, Indragiri and Palembang. Have a sniff around and see what turns up. But for the time being I'd say this style is safely S. Sumatran.

Actually telling these things apart isn't really all that hard most of the time - there are some wierd ones that turn up but for the most part its pretty straightforward. Hard and fast rules though, will usually get you in trouble. I'm not going to go through a lot of trouble to write out all of the defining characteristics either - that's a hell of a lot of work and I was kinda' saving it for a book

but really the best way is the tried and true rule, the more you handle, the more you know.

You should all keep in mind that in the mid-1700's there were over 40,000 "Bugis" living in Riau. By the 1860's their descendants had become "Melayu keturunan Bugis", that is "Malay's of Bugis descent." In other words for all intents and purposes - at least for 19th c and later pieces, which is most of them - all of these keris are "Malay" keris anyway.

BluErf · 14th March 2005, 11:25 PM

Dave, the goldwork I was referring to was on the piece posted by Rasdan, not Rsword. Rsword's keris gold pendok is older, I agree.

rahman · 15th March 2005, 12:54 AM

Sorry Dave... was mulling over the casino issue when I wrote about Kaki Kuda

Let me know if you want to trek down Sumatra... I'd like to tag along and learn from the Mahaguru first hand.

RSWORD · 15th March 2005, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raja Muda

Hi RSword,

I must say I'm still drooling over the first Bugis keris you posted. Just out of curiosity, is the batang covered in gold, gilded silver or brass. How old is the keris and who happens to be the lucky owner. Truly a blade to die for!

It is a lovely keris and I am the lucky owner of it. The scabbard sleeve is solid gold(been tested for authenticity) but I am uncertain of the age of it. It does have an oral provenance that places it circa 1810-20 but unfortunately I do not have more solid provenance to know for sure. The blade goes well with the dress and it is beautiful as well.

RSWORD · 15th March 2005, 02:18 AM

Here is a link to a prior thread that shows a few close up shots of the first Bugis keris I posted.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=272

Alam Shah · 15th March 2005, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

This keris was said to be a Bugis keris. I agree with that. What do u guys think? Is it a Sulawesi piece? The sampir looks new and in Minang (?) style. Some books refer this kind of sampir as Sulawesi keris. Is it true?

The sampir looks more Minangkabau Sumatra (Frey's The Kris, 3rd Ed, pg.65-67).
The blade however, looks more Javanese, (Dapur Sengkelat ?).
Hilt cup, looks like a variation of the Bugis cup.
Just my opinion, I may be wrong.

rasdan · 15th March 2005, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Pak Rasdan can solve this mystery -- can you show a shot of the top of the hilt?

Sorry Pak Rahman, i dont have that picture. The keris belongs to Museum Negara in KL. The gold keris exhibition is still going on now and I took the pictures about 4-5 months back.

Alam - I think this is just a composite keris. Everything is wrong. Perhaps the dress were newly made and the tukang thought i may be cool like that. And mu opinion the mata may be javaneese or most likely south sumatran. If its javaneese it is most likely the tang of this keris had been cut to be fitted with a kerdas hilt.

Alam Shah · 15th March 2005, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

Alam - I think this is just a composite keris. Everything is wrong. Perhaps the dress were newly made and the tukang thought i may be cool like that. And my opinion the mata may be javaneese or most likely south sumatran. If its javaneese it is most likely the tang of this keris had been cut to be fitted with a kerdas hilt.

Good observation on the tang difference.
According to some esoteric belief, a cut tang (or pesi), might weaken or destroy the strength of the initial spirit within ('hilang semangat keris').

rasdan · 15th March 2005, 09:30 AM

Some time ago i had a new Palembang piece. Its actually a javaneese keris fitted in a Palembang dress. The tang is obviously been cut away. Thats where i begin to observe that javaneese kerisses in Malay dress be it new or old, most of them had their tang shorten. Unless, of course it may not been cut if fitted with a taller jawa demam hilt. However we generally can observe that javaneese tang is much slenderer compared to Malay/Bugis etc tangs. Bottom line, before purchasing a keris, the tang size and length is really important. "Bugis" empus in Aeng Tong Tong already discovered this but then theres a lot more for them to learn. In a few years, they'll catch to the beat.

ganjawulung · 8th October 2011, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

Kodi, as most of us know by now know, comes from the Javanese kodiat. It refers to a bundle of "20", in this case, kerises. These were trade blades made in Java for sale and sold in quantity. As with most things I should think they would have been of varying "quality" based on where and when they wer produced, as well as who produced them. Most would have been fairly average, a few probably less so and some may have been very nice indeed. Of course this can only be presumed as we know very little about the keris trade at this point.

Just another illustration, yes, "kodi" means a bundle of "20" in javanese term as Dave has said. Usually we use this "kodi" term in trading or buying clothes, or batiks in javanese markets like Pasar Klewer in Solo, or Pasar Beringharjo in Yogyakarta, Indonesia. One "kodi" of batiks or clothes, we just say it "sak kodi" or "sekodi" (one kodi), "rong kodi" (two kodi), "telung kodi" (three kodi) etc... The "kodi" items, or not so high quality of things on trade term, we use to call it "something kodian". If it subjects to batiks, then we call it "batik kodian", and if it subjects to keris, then "keris kodian". So, "kodian" is adjectif for certain trade things, not high quality ones...

Bugis Keris · 4th April 2014, 06:13 PM

This Kriss From North Sumatera. and this kriss familiar own by Batakness culture one culture of in indonesia in familiar with kriss is batak.
in usually the owner of this kriss in batak culture call Datuk.

Thank YOU

kerisbiz · 7th June 2017, 02:42 PM

This is original Bugis Kriss Lamba 15 from Bone, South Celebes
I got from veteran soldier WW2... estimate 18 century... from 4 generations...

David · 7th June 2017, 03:05 PM

Hi Kerisbiz. I had to delete your link to your keris. All examples must be uploaded directly to the forum if you want to present your keris. This is because linked images disappear over time and leave sometimes large holes in our archived discussions. Thanks!

kai · 9th June 2017, 05:52 PM

The mods seem to enforce the rules more strictly recently - it definitely is important for keeping the info intact in the future as can be easily seen when browsing old threads which tend to have lots of dead links to pics that are dearly missing nowadays.

I do hope you give it another try to upload the pics to this site. If you experience any problems, just ask!

From what I can gather from your posting, I'd suggest to open a new thread for your keris rather than adding it to an old one - most pieces benefit from a dedicated discussion!

Regards,
Kai

David · 9th June 2017, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

From what I can gather from your posting, I'd suggest to open a new thread for your keris rather than adding it to an old one - most pieces benefit from a dedicated discussion!

I would agree Kai, it would certainly make more sense to start a new thread on this than to resurrect this old one.

14th March 2005, 11:47 AM	#32
Raja Muda Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 100	RSword's keris Hi RSword, I must say I'm still drooling over the first Bugis keris you posted. Just out of curiosity, is the batang covered in gold, gilded silver or brass. How old is the keris and who happens to be the lucky owner. Truly a blade to die for!

15th March 2005, 09:30 AM	#43
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Some time ago i had a new Palembang piece. Its actually a javaneese keris fitted in a Palembang dress. The tang is obviously been cut away. Thats where i begin to observe that javaneese kerisses in Malay dress be it new or old, most of them had their tang shorten. Unless, of course it may not been cut if fitted with a taller jawa demam hilt. However we generally can observe that javaneese tang is much slenderer compared to Malay/Bugis etc tangs. Bottom line, before purchasing a keris, the tang size and length is really important. "Bugis" empus in Aeng Tong Tong already discovered this but then theres a lot more for them to learn. In a few years, they'll catch to the beat. Last edited by rasdan; 15th March 2005 at 09:42 AM.

7th June 2017, 02:42 PM	#46
kerisbiz Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 15	This is original Bugis Kriss Lamba 15 from Bone, South Celebes This is original Bugis Kriss Lamba 15 from Bone, South Celebes I got from veteran soldier WW2... estimate 18 century... from 4 generations... Last edited by David; 7th June 2017 at 03:03 PM.

14th March 2005, 12:30 PM	#33
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I reckon the gold work to be 20th century work, which if we really stretch it back, would be about 100years, but maybe the middle ground of 50years is more likely. The reason why I think the gold work is new is because we don't see similarly elaborately gold-worked Malay/Bugis examples on older pieces in books. There are gold pendok and pendokos, but not with all these gold filigree, and so much of it. I always have the idea that pre-20th century kerises wear gold a lot more sparingly than post-20th century equivalents. Also, the older gold kerises use lower-purity gold (9-14k) whereas the examples we see in the pics here are unabashedly high carat shiny yellow gold.

14th March 2005, 01:49 PM	#34
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Still with the tapak kuda hilt -- I would imagine that, given the same geographical and cultural milieu (S and E Sumatra), the tapak kuda would have been a logical accessory than another design on the other side of the mountains, as it were. Pak Rasdan can solve this mystery -- can you show a shot of the top of the hilt? Or maybe you can tell us if it's a tapak kuda. Whose golden keris is that anyway? Sultan of Selangor? Or, as my imagination runs wild, is that the elusive golden keris salvaged from the Flora del Mel?

14th March 2005, 01:58 PM	#35
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Alamak! Rahman, tapak kuda lah...mana ada kaki kuda punya hulu sih? I'd say that piece has the most recent goldwork though. It lacks the finess of some ofthe earlier work. I'm going to have to disagree with Blu on the goldwork of Rsword's piece though. I'm thinking more mid-19th c. By 1900 most of the Sultan's were under Colonial domination, there was a precipitous decline in the quality of - especially - high end keris and the Raja Raja went off and became good little Westernized puppets, spending thier money on motorcars, waterford crystal and Gordon's gin. There's a similar example in Jensen - attributed to an Acehnese prince but clearly Straits in origin - I can't remember if its dated and I don't have a copy of the book so maybe someone can look it up - if I'm not wrong it was mid-19th. RSword's other piece also strikes me as S. Sumatran Bugis in origin. The blade especially. The dress is about as generically "Bugis" as you could get. Someday I'm going to get off my butt and take a trip down through Siak, Indragiri and Palembang. Have a sniff around and see what turns up. But for the time being I'd say this style is safely S. Sumatran. Actually telling these things apart isn't really all that hard most of the time - there are some wierd ones that turn up but for the most part its pretty straightforward. Hard and fast rules though, will usually get you in trouble. I'm not going to go through a lot of trouble to write out all of the defining characteristics either - that's a hell of a lot of work and I was kinda' saving it for a book but really the best way is the tried and true rule, the more you handle, the more you know. You should all keep in mind that in the mid-1700's there were over 40,000 "Bugis" living in Riau. By the 1860's their descendants had become "Melayu keturunan Bugis", that is "Malay's of Bugis descent." In other words for all intents and purposes - at least for 19th c and later pieces, which is most of them - all of these keris are "Malay" keris anyway.

14th March 2005, 11:25 PM	#36
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Dave, the goldwork I was referring to was on the piece posted by Rasdan, not Rsword. Rsword's keris gold pendok is older, I agree.

15th March 2005, 12:54 AM	#37
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Sorry Dave... was mulling over the casino issue when I wrote about Kaki Kuda Let me know if you want to trek down Sumatra... I'd like to tag along and learn from the Mahaguru first hand.

15th March 2005, 02:18 AM	#39
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Here is a link to a prior thread that shows a few close up shots of the first Bugis keris I posted. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=272

4th April 2014, 06:13 PM	#45
Bugis Keris Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Indonesia Samarinda Kalimantan Timur Bugis Posts: 15	This Kriss From North Sumatera. and this kriss familiar own by Batakness culture one culture of in indonesia in familiar with kriss is batak. in usually the owner of this kriss in batak culture call Datuk. Thank YOU

7th June 2017, 03:05 PM	#47
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	Hi Kerisbiz. I had to delete your link to your keris. All examples must be uploaded directly to the forum if you want to present your keris. This is because linked images disappear over time and leave sometimes large holes in our archived discussions. Thanks!

9th June 2017, 05:52 PM	#48
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	The mods seem to enforce the rules more strictly recently - it definitely is important for keeping the info intact in the future as can be easily seen when browsing old threads which tend to have lots of dead links to pics that are dearly missing nowadays. I do hope you give it another try to upload the pics to this site. If you experience any problems, just ask! From what I can gather from your posting, I'd suggest to open a new thread for your keris rather than adding it to an old one - most pieces benefit from a dedicated discussion! Regards, Kai