Unknown weapon

[Sajen]

A few days ago this ended on ebay and i am curious to know what it is and I am sure that someone will know the name and origin. I think that it comes from SEA. It is 20" long, the blade is 7" and 1/2" thick.

Thank you,

Detlef

[Robert]

It kind of looks like a Bagobo sangi on steroids. Maybe a larger brush cutting version?
What ever it is it looks to be very well made. Nice find.

Robert

[KuKulzA28]

Looks like it'd be really good for shaving sticks or peeling big fruits...

[Nathaniel]

Hey Detlef,

I tried to find if there where any past threads on this one...thought there where but maybe it was just some discussions before I remember???

I don't know the name for these, but they are a nice style of utility knife you will find in Thailand, and neighboring countries. You might commonly hear about it called a rattan splitter. The long curved handle is functional because you can use your forearm, knee, stomach it to brace/stabilize the blade which allows you to do either a push or draw cut

Here are some other examples:

[A. G. Maisey]

Here is a pic of something I sold about 8 or 9 years ago.

I was told by somebody who should know a lot more than I do about Indian culture and society, that it is a ritual razor. It was pretty big, maybe 12 or 14 inches long, however held like a razor it was quite easy to use as one.

Yes, its gold koftgari and the ferrule was gold.

I apologise for the photo, its a pic of a pic, done by artificial light at night, with P&P camera.

[tom hyle]

AFAIK Nathaniel is essentially correct. Additionally to splitting rattan though, these long handled knives are used for carving wood. Not only does the long handle allow the blade to be driven with the shoulder or belly using the weight and power of the torso, but the massive blade reduces chatter/vibration/wiggle and gives stability to the cut.
On the other hand, SE Asia often shows a close kinship between fighting and work forms and Alan Maisey's highly decorated example is interesting. On an even longer handle, still often curved, there are cutting spears much like this, though they lack the widened butt for pushing against.
I've been drooling over this item, but buying others......

[Tim Simmons]

It is hard to deny that this knife must be related to the examples shown. A recent visitor whos oppions I found I had to respect suggested that this knife was from Asian Islands. I thought it could be some kind of fancy "Nifo Oti"

It is 21 inches long, blade 6.75 inches long, much the same as the item Detlef started the topic with. The blade is thin, 3mm at the very most near the forte, 5mm at the curl. The trouble is to me the handle decoration seems so not Asian? also the ferrule is is just bent round and not solderd or braised the ends just butting up to each other which does not strike me as Asian unless Island in the very extreme of east Asia? It would be great to find an answer. I no longer collect Asian weapons or any blades unless very unusual.

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Here is a pic of something I sold about 8 or 9 years ago.

I was told by somebody who should know a lot more than I do about Indian culture and society, that it is a ritual razor. It was pretty big, maybe 12 or 14 inches long, however held like a razor it was quite easy to use as one.

Yes, its gold koftgari and the ferrule was gold.

I apologise for the photo, its a pic of a pic, done by artificial light at night, with P&P camera.

Wow, that is quite the fancy one! I've never seen one that decorative...just the simple utility pieces. Thanks for sharing! Always fun to see something you haven't seen before :-)

[tom hyle]

Tim, pretty sure yours is African

[mohd]

To me it looks like a Pisau Raut / Pisau Wali / Pisau Coret of Peninsular Malaysia or Penat of Sarawak

mohd

[Tim Simmons]

Can we take this further,

http://manzuritasuki.multiply.com/ph...alipisau_coret

Not very helpful? The visitor that suggested my piece was from Island Asia? could mean old Malaya or Borneo?

[Tim Simmons]

Untill more information is forth coming. I speculate that the example I have is some kind of Malaysian island sacrificial razor? Animist/Islamic fusion? Though I still do not see the carved decoration as Asian?

[VANDOO]

RAN ACROSS A EXAMPLE OF THIS FORM WHILE SEARCHING STONES, SEE PAGE 365 PLATE 459. FIG 4, SIAM RATTAN TRIMMING KNIFE 24IN. LONG, BLADE 8.5 IN.

[A. G. Maisey]

Barry, thank you for bringing this to our attention, but I feel that we are wandering away from the example that Sajen posted and that began this thread.

The one that I had , and have posted a pic of, was most certainly no tool, it was a very high quality, very refined implement, that carried quite a lot of gold. The daughter of an Indian Brahmin identified it as a ritual razor (she is married to friend).She may be right, or may be wrong, but in the hand and held as one would to shave, surprisely, it worked.

Sajen's example and the one I had appear to be vitually the same, except for the level of quality. However, we also see a procession of implements which are of similar overall form, but are clearly very different to the examples posted by Sajen and me.

I believe that this example shown in Stone is the most divergent yet.

[VANDOO]

NO DOUBT THE FORM CHANGED FROM COUNTRY TO COUNTRY AND THE QUALITY AND DIFFERENT USES VARIED AS WELL. THE LONG CURVED HANDLE AND SHAPE OF BLADE ALOWS FOR USING PLENTY OF PRESSURE AS WELL AS HAVING SMOOTH STABLE CONTROL SO DELICATE WORK CAN BE DONE. I WOULD CERTIANLY CONSIDER SHAVEING ONES SELF OR SOMEONE IMPORTANT A DELICATE OPERATION AS IN THE LATTER YOUR LIFE MIGHT DEPEND ON A GOOD JOB.
I COULD SEE YOUR EXAMPLE ONLY BEING USED PERHAPS TO SHAVE A HEAD OF AN IMPORTANT PERSON AND PERHAPS IN DIFFERENT RITUALS DEFINITELY NOT A COMMON WORK KNIFE. LESS FANCY ONES MAY HAVE BEEN USED AS WORK KNIVES AS WELL AS FOR PERSONEL HYGENE OR IN SPECIAL RITUALS AS WELL.
ALL OF THSE KNIFES REMINDS ME OF THE SMALL SIDE KNIFE (PISAU RAUT) CARRIED IN THE BACK POUCHES OF SOME DAYAK WEAPONS. THESE KNIVES WERE USED TO CARVE WOOD AND WORK FIBER AS WELL AS TO GROOM THE OWNER, SHAVEING TRIMING HAIR OR FINGERNAILS ECT.
SO FAR WE HAVE SIMULAR KNIVES FROM SEVERAL DIFFERENT COUNTRYS THE ONE IN STONES BEING FROM SIAM (THAILAND) IF USED ONLY IN RITUAL IT WOULD NO DOUBT BE USED IN BUDIST CEREMONY. NO DOUBT THERE WOULD BE DIFERENCES IN HINDU , MALAY, INDONESIAN AND OTHER CULTURES
UNFORTUNATELY THE ONLY THING I CAN SAY FOR CERTIAN ABOUT THE FIRST KNIFE IS COOL WELL MADE KNIFE AND PRETTY WOOD.

[Tim Simmons]

I can understand Alan's concerns about drift from the example Detlef started the topic with. Perhaps we are not even half way through? In many ways I see the only point of this forum is to drift or remain forever stuck on a straight line. Plenty of time to return to the start after cogitation of all similar forms. This brings to mind a saying equally relevant to arts and crafts that "no man is an island"

This is the example Barry brings to note from "Stone" it is actually quite a bit larger. Have an 8 inch blade and the handle is horn 24 inches long. I would say that was a substantial weapon.

[Tim Simmons]

Now talking about the example I post here. The decoration is throwing me. One might liken the decoration to work from Samoa or Tonga? but also look at these artifacts from Roumania. As I stated this just does not look like Asian decoration? To me anyway, however the form seems to comform to an Asian origin.

[Indianajones]

Hi, the quite interesting knife Tim has presented us deserves to my (humble) opinion its own thread. Although it looks simple it is I think an ancient knife which has its own 'follow ups' in the rest of Asia, as I do also think it originates from mainland Asia (meaning; Birma, Laos etc).

Besides; the zigzag-decoration is a quite basic one and is used my many cultures all over the world. Actually the way it is done reminded me immediately of the decoration on Fijian clubs, but clearly the knife has nothing to do with Fiji.

The fact it is quite an interesting knife is that -as being a N.-Philippine collector- I really consider this knife to be a possible fore-runner of the N.-Phil. Kalinga axe; see the thread 'origin of the Kalinga axe' .
Although it does not look much like one, it does has many similarities -very basic ones- that are so characteristic of the Kalinga axes; spur at back of the blade (although rolled up), a ferrule, the bulges in the handle, the spur, the copper rings as deco and also the zigzag-deco.

Would like to know Nonoy's oppinion about it.

[tom hyle]

[QUOTE=Indianajones]Hi, the quite interesting knife Tim has presented us deserves to my (humble) opinion its own thread. Although it looks simple it is I think an ancient knife which has its own 'follow ups' in the rest of Asia, as I do also think it originates from mainland Asia (meaning; Birma, Laos etc).

Besides; the zigzag-decoration is a quite basic one and is used my many cultures all over the world. Actually the way it is done reminded me immediately of the decoration on Fijian clubs, but clearly the knife has nothing to do with Fiji.

The fact it is quite an interesting knife is that -as being a N.-Philippine collector- I really consider this knife to be a possible fore-runner of the N.-Phil. Kalinga axe; see the thread 'origin of the Kalinga axe' .
Although it does not look much like one, it does has many similarities -very basic ones- that are so characteristic of the Kalinga axes; spur at back of the blade (although rolled up), a ferrule, the bulges in the handle, the spur, the copper rings as deco and also the zigzag-deco.

Would like to know Nonoy's oppinion about it.[/Q


There would seem to be a relation to (other) tanged SE Asian choppers such as the long handled Naga dao as well? Note however that the handle is always curved and that it relates to both dha and European medieval wood carving knives with similar long handles (ie the long handled wood carving knife is not an isolated thing by any means!)
Tim's piece, which still looks African to me, is, at least, not typical, and none of the other ones have projections on their handles.
Interesting point about the spur projecting from the peak of the clip on one or two (depending on Tim's) examples.
The zig zag decoration is usually known in English as "hound's tooth"

[Sajen]

A few days ago I was able to acquire this rattan knife, I think it's Cambodian. The handle was lacquered and it was not easy to find the correct thinner to remove it. It is 48 cm long with a blade from 19,5 cm which is 13 mm thick behind the "habaki". The last picture shows it together with another knife from Cambodia, it was once shown here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=enep
Now I am of the opinion that it is Cambodian as well.

Like usual, all comments are very welcome.

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

Very nice finds Detlef, both examples for me are Cambodian Kabet (knife in khmer), they are used throughout the whole region of Cambodia Thailand and Laos, but yours are 100% Cambodian, the give away are the mounts, they are often mistakenly thought to be from Vietnam, likely as they were also used in the Cham regions.
The long hilt ones are for splitting rattan and bamboo and are traditionally carried in a very simple bamboo holder - scabbard slung over one shoulder, see pics attached, these are modern but just to show the means of carrying them and what they were used for, but also as weapons to.
Today with youtube and some interesting vids on Cambodian smiths you can still see these being made in identical form and still used, if I am correct the style of the mounts on these are from the Phnom Penh regions, there are other types though as there are different types of P'keak - Kokok '' Maks '' from different regions, much the same as there are regional types of many other Asian knives used for work and doubling up as weapons, hope this helps. Snody

[Ian]

Hi Detlef,

Very nice looking knife. I agree with Snody, the mounts look Cambodian although the blade style is found widely in mainland SE Asia. The Malay term for this knife would be a pisau raut, similar in shape to the small utility knife often seen in a sheath on the back of a mandau. While these knives could certainly be used as nasty self-defense items, they were mostly utility knives for cutting rattan and other chores.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Detlef,

Very nice looking knife. I agree with Snody, the mounts look Cambodian although the blade style is found widely in mainland SE Asia. The Malay term for this knife would be a pisau raut, similar in shape to the small utility knife often seen in a sheath on the back of a mandau. While these knives could certainly be used as nasty self-defense items, they were mostly utility knives for cutting rattan and other chores.

Hi Ian,

Thank you for confirming my and Snodys origin determination! And yes, pisau raut would be the Malay term for these knives. Like all knives they could be used as self-defense but by my example is only the curve at the edge sharpened. Snody has shown good pictures of how it is used until today.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Maj-Biffy Snodgrass

Very nice finds Detlef, both examples for me are Cambodian Kabet (knife in khmer), they are used throughout the whole region of Cambodia Thailand and Laos, but yours are 100% Cambodian, the give away are the mounts, they are often mistakenly thought to be from Vietnam, likely as they were also used in the Cham regions.
The long hilt ones are for splitting rattan and bamboo and are traditionally carried in a very simple bamboo holder - scabbard slung over one shoulder, see pics attached, these are modern but just to show the means of carrying them and what they were used for, but also as weapons to.
Today with youtube and some interesting vids on Cambodian smiths you can still see these being made in identical form and still used, if I am correct the style of the mounts on these are from the Phnom Penh regions, there are other types though as there are different types of P'keak - Kokok '' Maks '' from different regions, much the same as there are regional types of many other Asian knives used for work and doubling up as weapons, hope this helps. Snody

Hi Snody,

Thank you very much for confirming that this knife is from Cambodia and the very interesting pictures. By ebay is listed such a knife with a scabbard like on your first picture but much more fancy, sadly I can't post a picture because it's still for selling.

Regards,
Detlef

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

Here is another with the same style mounts, 19thc and from south Cambodia, note the very apparent lotus bud tip and hilt, a very prominent theme in Cambodia.
The basket scabbard is not likely the original but is used throughout the whole region of Thailand and Cambodia into Laos, so far i have never seen it in use in Burma though.
This one I once owned and sold many years ago. Snody

[kronckew]

The basket scabbards seem to be fairly common for working tools in the area.

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

Yes they are a regular thing, easy to make and perfect for the job they do. Snody