A barong for good price - had to grab it!

KuKulzA28 · 7th July 2011, 10:54 PM

So I decided that I was going to take a break from antiques weapons because of the cost. But, a good deal came along and I decided to temporarily break the hiatus with a quick purchase.

This barong, not sure what island, but I am going to guess Sulu... has a sheath that's starting to split ventrally, has a chipped area near the mouth, the area under the ferrule is beginning to disintegrate, and there may have been more to the kakatua at one point but I believe it was meant to be small and abbreviated... I feel like it was recently made (despite having a very nice and comfortable handle) because the sheath is very plain (though the wood seems good) and the steel... the steel seems to be not very old, not laminated, roughly polished, and without a very good distal taper... After some repair to the area under the ferrule perhaps this will be a very sturdy barong, one I wouldn't hesitate to use given the "not-so-pretty" blade.

My guts tell me its a newer piece, maybe 20th century, but not necessarily for tourists... still, being a novice, I have a good chance of being wrong.

Thoughts?

Battara · 8th July 2011, 12:26 AM

I agree with you in that it is a newer 20 century piece. I might also say Samal, but the scabbard looks unfinished. I also agree that the pommel was made to be small like this and is complete for the most part. It is definitely a fighter.

ThePepperSkull · 8th July 2011, 04:45 AM

Nice find, Vin! You know I love me some recently-made blades and this one looks great to me. That hilt in particular is wonderful. Samal and Yakan barung always have the most interesting hilts/pommels. Where'dja get it? fleabay?

How thick is the blade at the base?

I really should post mine as well (Got an old kris for a great price. heavy heavy pitting, but gorgeous piece. I have to say not as nice as this barung though.)

KuKulzA28 · 8th July 2011, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I agree with you in that it is a newer 20 century piece. I might also say Samal, but the scabbard looks unfinished. I also agree that the pommel was made to be small like this and is complete for the most part. It is definitely a fighter.

A fighter eh? That's what I think too, feels like it...

is there anything very distinct about Samal sheaths that make it clearer if it was Samal or not?

Also, on the topic of Samal... is the right way to describe a Samal person or thing: Samalese? Samali? Samalano?
Or is it just Samal? I mean I've seen Bugis as simply Bugis or sometimes Buginese...
but other ethnicities are called Samarano or Cebuano etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

Nice find, Vin! You know I love me some recently-made blades and this one looks great to me. That hilt in particular is wonderful. Samal and Yakan barung always have the most interesting hilts/pommels. Where'dja get it? fleabay?

How thick is the blade at the base?

I really should post mine as well (Got an old kris for a great price. heavy heavy pitting, but gorgeous piece. I have to say not as nice as this barung though.)

Yea, what attracted me most at first was the hilt... and yeah the 'bay...

It's just shy of 1/4" thick at the base, so about 0.6 cm.
Feels real nice in hand, makes me wanna cleave something.

I look forward to seeing the kris, post it up when you have the time!

Battara · 8th July 2011, 07:33 AM

"Samal" - well, I use and have seen Samal for the tribe and person.

Now for the scabbard - it is usually the type of detailed carving and okir used on that carving on top and bottom. What makes this difficult is that the scabbard outlines look similar from Samal and late 20th century Sulu. So I also look at the pommel with is usually shorter in dimensions with an almost 90 degree angle versus the usual 45 degree angle for Sulu hilts. Again this gets confusing for 20th century examples that seem to take on Samal characteristics.

Ok I just made it clear as mud. Sorry.

Battara · 8th July 2011, 07:49 AM

Here is a better explanation:

The barong on the left is Sulu and the pommel is near a 45 degree angle to the blade.

The barong on the right is Samal with the pommel closer to a 90 degree angle to the blade. Also I carved this scabbard in earlier Samal style with intricate okir.

ThePepperSkull · 8th July 2011, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Now for the scabbard - it is usually the type of detailed carving and okir used on that carving on top and bottom. What makes this difficult is that the scabbard outlines look similar from Samal and late 20th century Sulu. So I also look at the pommel with is usually shorter in dimensions with an almost 90 degree angle versus the usual 45 degree angle for Sulu hilts. Again this gets confusing for 20th century examples that seem to take on Samal characteristics.

Ok I just made it clear as mud. Sorry.

Actually this did make things a lot clearer for me, despite it still being confusing -- this is the nature of 'later' Moro Swords I guess.

Moro blade/hilt characteristics do tend to get melded together and are harder to differentiate from one specific origin to the next if we're talking about linking particular tribes to region-specific weaponry. I thought I was the only one that thought this, so to know I'm not the only one that finds that fact confusing is rather comforting I must say.

Also, the description regarding the pommel helps a lot. I notice this hilt also has wrapping on it as well as a punto. Would the style of wrap be any indicator of the origin? (i.e. did the Samal twine/vine-wrap their hilts in different patterns than the Yakan or the Tausug?) Would material coe into play as well (perhaps one tribe preferred rattan strips versus some type of twine wrap or something to that effect)?

Lew · 8th July 2011, 12:56 PM

I must disagree with the age. The ferrule seems well made and the patina on the hilt is very deep and rich. The scabbard seems newer probably a replacement. I would place the barongs age as 1935-40 but could be a bit older.

Battara · 8th July 2011, 04:09 PM

Lew I agree with you - guess I should be more specific when I say newer 20th century. In fact I too think the scabbard might be later than the barong itself.

The Pepperskull - yes to an extent. The Yakan for example do not use a punto or wrap. Samal and Sulu use woven wrap on their barongs.

KuKulzA28 · 8th July 2011, 07:57 PM

Battara, thanks for the information, and after re-reading it once, it was no longer confusing - the picture comparison also helped, thanks! That's a really nicely carved scabbard by the way, your work never ceases to impress me.

The grip is definitely very finely woven material, so by Battara's claim, we can assume not Yakan...

an interesting world Moro blades are... full of little nuances within several well-established blade forms.

Battara · 8th July 2011, 10:29 PM

Thank you KulkulzA28.

Yes there are a LOT of nuances and I feel that we have only scratched the surface................

Battara · 8th July 2011, 10:54 PM

Oh found some of my pictures. Here are some pictures of Samal barongs with similar hilts to yours and how the scabbard top was meant to be originally.

KuKulzA28 · 23rd July 2011, 06:20 AM

Battara, I forgot to thank you for posting up these photos... the carvings are very intricate and beautiful... and yup, those definitely look very similar to my barong's hilt...

I definitely have a soft spot for these big leaf-shaped cleavers...

7th July 2011, 10:54 PM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	A barong for good price - had to grab it! So I decided that I was going to take a break from antiques weapons because of the cost. But, a good deal came along and I decided to temporarily break the hiatus with a quick purchase. This barong, not sure what island, but I am going to guess Sulu... has a sheath that's starting to split ventrally, has a chipped area near the mouth, the area under the ferrule is beginning to disintegrate, and there may have been more to the kakatua at one point but I believe it was meant to be small and abbreviated... I feel like it was recently made (despite having a very nice and comfortable handle) because the sheath is very plain (though the wood seems good) and the steel... the steel seems to be not very old, not laminated, roughly polished, and without a very good distal taper... After some repair to the area under the ferrule perhaps this will be a very sturdy barong, one I wouldn't hesitate to use given the "not-so-pretty" blade. My guts tell me its a newer piece, maybe 20th century, but not necessarily for tourists... still, being a novice, I have a good chance of being wrong. Thoughts? Attached Images

8th July 2011, 07:49 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Here is a better explanation: The barong on the left is Sulu and the pommel is near a 45 degree angle to the blade. The barong on the right is Samal with the pommel closer to a 90 degree angle to the blade. Also I carved this scabbard in earlier Samal style with intricate okir. Attached Images

8th July 2011, 10:54 PM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Oh found some of my pictures. Here are some pictures of Samal barongs with similar hilts to yours and how the scabbard top was meant to be originally. Attached Images

8th July 2011, 12:26 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I agree with you in that it is a newer 20 century piece. I might also say Samal, but the scabbard looks unfinished. I also agree that the pommel was made to be small like this and is complete for the most part. It is definitely a fighter.

8th July 2011, 04:45 AM	#3
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	Nice find, Vin! You know I love me some recently-made blades and this one looks great to me. That hilt in particular is wonderful. Samal and Yakan barung always have the most interesting hilts/pommels. Where'dja get it? fleabay? How thick is the blade at the base? I really should post mine as well (Got an old kris for a great price. heavy heavy pitting, but gorgeous piece. I have to say not as nice as this barung though.)

8th July 2011, 07:33 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	"Samal" - well, I use and have seen Samal for the tribe and person. Now for the scabbard - it is usually the type of detailed carving and okir used on that carving on top and bottom. What makes this difficult is that the scabbard outlines look similar from Samal and late 20th century Sulu. So I also look at the pommel with is usually shorter in dimensions with an almost 90 degree angle versus the usual 45 degree angle for Sulu hilts. Again this gets confusing for 20th century examples that seem to take on Samal characteristics. Ok I just made it clear as mud. Sorry.

8th July 2011, 12:56 PM	#8
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I must disagree with the age. The ferrule seems well made and the patina on the hilt is very deep and rich. The scabbard seems newer probably a replacement. I would place the barongs age as 1935-40 but could be a bit older.

8th July 2011, 04:09 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Lew I agree with you - guess I should be more specific when I say newer 20th century. In fact I too think the scabbard might be later than the barong itself. The Pepperskull - yes to an extent. The Yakan for example do not use a punto or wrap. Samal and Sulu use woven wrap on their barongs.

8th July 2011, 07:57 PM	#10
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Battara, thanks for the information, and after re-reading it once, it was no longer confusing - the picture comparison also helped, thanks! That's a really nicely carved scabbard by the way, your work never ceases to impress me. The grip is definitely very finely woven material, so by Battara's claim, we can assume not Yakan... an interesting world Moro blades are... full of little nuances within several well-established blade forms.

8th July 2011, 10:29 PM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Thank you KulkulzA28. Yes there are a LOT of nuances and I feel that we have only scratched the surface................

23rd July 2011, 06:20 AM	#13
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Battara, I forgot to thank you for posting up these photos... the carvings are very intricate and beautiful... and yup, those definitely look very similar to my barong's hilt... I definitely have a soft spot for these big leaf-shaped cleavers...