Has anyone seen anything similar to this sword?

Dmitry · 22nd June 2011, 03:09 PM

I've only spent a couple of minutes looking at this sword, and the blade initially reminded me of nimchas, because of its smaller size and abrupt curvature. The script looked amharic, but an expert collector of Ethiopian swords confirmed that it wasn't. The hilt also steered me towards the realm of Islam - the Hamsa Hand, but it doesn't really look like other representations of it.
The script could be just a collection talismanic symbols. Unfortunately the photo of what appears to be a winged figure came out blurry.

Gavin Nugent · 22nd June 2011, 03:16 PM

A very nice and unusual piece.

I get the feel it might be Hungarian and I do believe you are correct in your assessment of the hand, I too would say it is the hand of Fatima.

I look forward to other assessments.

Gav

ALEX · 22nd June 2011, 03:41 PM

Tha hand looks more Asian then Islamic. Perhaps Indonesian or Indian...Hand of Buddha???

Gavin Nugent · 22nd June 2011, 04:14 PM

Interesting to note the back of the hand is covered in flames while the palm is not. The guard shows vine leaves and grapes. Also there seems to be an angel with a sun above it to one side, the reverse seems to be a parasol with ?fire? under it???

These references might help with some leads....bed time for me, I look forward to seeing whats here in the morning.....Jim's going to love this one!!

Gav

Dmitry · 22nd June 2011, 04:35 PM

Here's another photo of the front of the blade. Note the crown underneath the umbrella. I am really angry with myself for not taking a better photo of the figure on the other side of the blade.
The sword belongs to the Higgins Armory Museum, and I'm trying to help the curator properly ID it for the exhibition they'll be opening up soon.

RSWORD · 22nd June 2011, 06:16 PM

The blade looks Indian to my eyes and do I see an Indian parasol mark?

fernando · 22nd June 2011, 06:41 PM

Weird !
The hand of Fatima would have to be the right one; they (Muslims) wouldn't turn it

.
The crown ... do they have this type of crowns in India ? it looks Western

Thr script ... not Hindi, not Arabic

Tim Simmons · 22nd June 2011, 07:38 PM

The grapes on the hilt do not suggest India or the east to me, nor does the lettering. I Would suspect some sort of central European parade sword. Could easily be civil society rather than military. The hand is also European think of the red hand of Ulster and the notorious Black Hand which lead to a few years of trouble.

A.alnakkas · 22nd June 2011, 07:40 PM

Not Islamic at all. I'd suggest its east european.

Dmitry · 22nd June 2011, 07:49 PM

I've perused my books on the Indian arms and did not see anything even remotely similar to the hilt and/or the decorations on the blade.
To toss another hand in the mix - the open hand mark was also used by the Swiss on the blades of the arsenal-kept swords.

RSWORD · 22nd June 2011, 08:41 PM

I'm not saying the entire piece is Indian, just the blade. The lettering could be a post-manufacture add-on but the profile of the blade, the fullering and the umbrella/parasol mark are quite Indian. The crown is unusual with the parasol mark. We have to remember that blades from India can be found in East European and Western mounts. Look at the spine of this blade. This form of blade from India often, not always, will have a recessed or fullered spine and this feature is not common in blades from other parts of the world. I doubt the blade is in good enough polish to see if it is watered or not and being from India it could be anything but take it into good sunlight and see if you can notice any pattern welding or other watering. Also, it appears there is the slightest hint of a "ricasso" at the cutting edge of the blade near the hilt which is quite reminescent of some Indian blades which are sharpened a few inches down from the hilt and over long periods of time can be "indented" quite a bit.

In thinking about the script, there are a number of Indian blades that have European style lettering that is basically non-descript, done in imitation of European markings. This script reminds me of some of those examples.

Dmitry · 22nd June 2011, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

This form of blade from India often, not always, will have a recessed or fullered spine and this feature is not common in blades from other parts of the world.

The spine IS fullered. I will attach a photo later. Could you please post a photo of the umbrella/parasol decoration?
It is also possible that the blade is European, made to emulate the Eastern style, as was sometimes done in the 17th-18th. c. for the use in the so-called 'Turkish Balls', which were in fashion amongst the Germanic nobility.

fernando · 22nd June 2011, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

... In thinking about the script, there are a number of Indian blades that have European style lettering that is basically non-descript, done in imitation of European markings...

Quite plausible; Turks (Ottoman) also practice this in firearms lockplates.

RSWORD · 22nd June 2011, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

The spine IS fullered. I will attach a photo later. Could you please post a photo of the umbrella/parasol decoration?
It is also possible that the blade is European, made to emulate the Eastern style, as was sometimes done in the 17th-18th. c. for the use in the so-called 'Turkish Balls', which were in fashion amongst the Germanic nobility.

Here is a link to a discussion on the parasol mark and pictures of a couple of examples.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=parasol

In my experience, you only find the fullered spine in Indian swords and occasionally in Polish/E European blades and also in Chinese blades. Given the size, blade fullering and general look I lean heavily towards this blade being Indian.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd June 2011, 10:52 PM

Rick,
I am fully with you, the blade is Indian - to my opinion NW but I may be wrong.
Jens

Battara · 22nd June 2011, 11:42 PM

I was wondering about that parasol and the sun - a trade to Ethiopia? (they have different forms of Hamsa).

napoleon · 22nd June 2011, 11:50 PM

i think the script is possibly a form of cyrillic.to me it says eastern europe,does it have a scabbard,and if so is it in the form of a sleeve regards napoleon

napoleon · 23rd June 2011, 12:03 AM

in fact i think it could be seen as an ultimatum, in as much it could be viewed as the hand of peace or the hand of fire.i dont think it to be the hand of fatima.and i feel sure it is a very special piece,but europe im sure regards napoleon

Gavin Nugent · 23rd June 2011, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

In my experience, you only find the fullered spine in Indian swords and occasionally in Polish/E European blades and also in Chinese blades. Given the size, blade fullering and general look I lean heavily towards this blade being Indian.

As a note, I have fullered spines on Chinese, Burmese, Georgian, Indian and Sarawak weapons and have seen them on other Borneo, Turkic and Thai weapons too.

With the new images and now seeing clearly the step in the blade NW India is very possible for the blade.

Gav

katana · 23rd June 2011, 12:32 AM

Interesting sword indeed. I too would not be surprised if the blade was Indian. The 'script' has runic elements, common across Europe, probably added later. The other noticeable thing is that when the sword is gripped you are effectively 'shaking its hand'. Perhaps relavent....perhaps not. The shaking of hands is symbolic of being unarmed/non threatening (as most people are right handed ....you would have to either 'sheath' your weapon or place it in the left ...to be able to 'offer' your right hand. (unless you happen to be a left hander (sinister) and had murderous intent

Regards David

Rick · 23rd June 2011, 01:59 AM

Not so sure about the hand-shaking part implied here; when you grasp someone's hand it is thumb to thumb.

Suggest the hand is 'sinistre' in the intention of the hilt form .

The rings for the missing chain point to right handed use .

Redjack · 23rd June 2011, 02:36 AM

The script seems to be cyrillic. Anyone with a knowledge of Russian should decipher it. When the sword is held, is it comfortable to wield?, or does it seem purely ornamental or ceremonial?

Jeff D · 23rd June 2011, 07:20 AM

I would love to see the entire profile of the blade. The raised forte, and raised yelman(?) suggest Eastern Europe (Hungarian-Polish), Ottoman, maybe Chinese.

Jeff

Gavin Nugent · 23rd June 2011, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

I would love to see the entire profile of the blade. The raised forte, and raised yelman(?) suggest Eastern Europe (Hungarian-Polish), Ottoman, maybe Chinese.

Jeff

Well Noted Jeff, I still think 100% Hungarian.....

Tatyana Dianova · 23rd June 2011, 08:44 AM

Redjack: The script is neither old, nor new Cyrillic...

Iain · 23rd June 2011, 11:15 AM

Not sure it is this at all, but the script reminds me of this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Hungarian_script

There are a number of old script forms and alphabets in central Europe, so while it may not be this one I am semi positive it is from the general area.

ariel · 23rd June 2011, 12:59 PM

Agree with Tatiana: the script is definitely not Cyrillic.
There is an eagle on the blade, looking suspiciously like the USA. The inscription confirms it: "E pluribus unum". In short- USA blade, 19-20 century. Who reworked it, and in what style, is a separate question.
The quillon on one side looks somewhat "nabour-ish", isn't it?

fernando · 23rd June 2011, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

There is an eagle on the blade, looking suspiciously like the USA. The inscription confirms it: "E pluribus unum".

That would be the lower picture, which is another thing ... not the upper one in discussion

tom hyle · 23rd June 2011, 02:43 PM

Wow. What a cool sword.
Note that the guard seems to be shaped as the cuff of a likely ceremonial vestment of some kind. Is there any known gesture, used in religious or lodge practice, perhaps, where one grips one's own left hand in the manner one grips this hilt?
I had a straight Spanish cavalry "saber" with a spine fuller. Beautiful sword. Very rust-pitted, but I sharpened it up for a friend who needed a sword.
Love the spine fuller. Love the peaked spine. I love that spine they do on pesh kabz and salawar yatagans sometimes, where the spine has its own little round-topped midrib......

I love the spine groove....
Is the hilt cast on to the tang on this sword, or how is it attached, if you don't mind answering?

Dmitry · 23rd June 2011, 04:10 PM

The script may resemble the runic characters, but in a way of imitation. I don't think there is any meaning to them in the conventional sense, i.e. these are not abbreviations of anything in the Western vernacular. In other words, they have nothing to do with the abbreviated inscriptions on the Viking period swords, in my opinion.
Here's an additional shot of the blade.
Ceremonial/secret society vestment purpose might be the answer, among other things. The script may represent a societal code of some sort.

22nd June 2011, 03:09 PM	#1
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Has anyone seen anything similar to this sword? I've only spent a couple of minutes looking at this sword, and the blade initially reminded me of nimchas, because of its smaller size and abrupt curvature. The script looked amharic, but an expert collector of Ethiopian swords confirmed that it wasn't. The hilt also steered me towards the realm of Islam - the Hamsa Hand, but it doesn't really look like other representations of it. The script could be just a collection talismanic symbols. Unfortunately the photo of what appears to be a winged figure came out blurry. Attached Images

22nd June 2011, 03:16 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	nice A very nice and unusual piece. I get the feel it might be Hungarian and I do believe you are correct in your assessment of the hand, I too would say it is the hand of Fatima. I look forward to other assessments. Gav

22nd June 2011, 04:35 PM	#5
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Here's another photo of the front of the blade. Note the crown underneath the umbrella. I am really angry with myself for not taking a better photo of the figure on the other side of the blade. The sword belongs to the Higgins Armory Museum, and I'm trying to help the curator properly ID it for the exhibition they'll be opening up soon. Attached Images Last edited by Dmitry; 22nd June 2011 at 04:46 PM.

22nd June 2011, 11:50 PM	#17
napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 88	the hand sword i think the script is possibly a form of cyrillic.to me it says eastern europe,does it have a scabbard,and if so is it in the form of a sleeve regards napoleon

23rd June 2011, 12:03 AM	#18
napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 88	hand sword in fact i think it could be seen as an ultimatum, in as much it could be viewed as the hand of peace or the hand of fire.i dont think it to be the hand of fatima.and i feel sure it is a very special piece,but europe im sure regards napoleon

22nd June 2011, 03:41 PM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Tha hand looks more Asian then Islamic. Perhaps Indonesian or Indian...Hand of Buddha???

22nd June 2011, 04:14 PM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Interesting to note the back of the hand is covered in flames while the palm is not. The guard shows vine leaves and grapes. Also there seems to be an angel with a sun above it to one side, the reverse seems to be a parasol with ?fire? under it??? These references might help with some leads....bed time for me, I look forward to seeing whats here in the morning.....Jim's going to love this one!! Gav

22nd June 2011, 06:16 PM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	The blade looks Indian to my eyes and do I see an Indian parasol mark?

22nd June 2011, 06:41 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Weird ! The hand of Fatima would have to be the right one; they (Muslims) wouldn't turn it . The crown ... do they have this type of crowns in India ? it looks Western Thr script ... not Hindi, not Arabic

22nd June 2011, 07:38 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The grapes on the hilt do not suggest India or the east to me, nor does the lettering. I Would suspect some sort of central European parade sword. Could easily be civil society rather than military. The hand is also European think of the red hand of Ulster and the notorious Black Hand which lead to a few years of trouble.

22nd June 2011, 07:40 PM	#9
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Not Islamic at all. I'd suggest its east european.

22nd June 2011, 07:49 PM	#10
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	I've perused my books on the Indian arms and did not see anything even remotely similar to the hilt and/or the decorations on the blade. To toss another hand in the mix - the open hand mark was also used by the Swiss on the blades of the arsenal-kept swords.

22nd June 2011, 08:41 PM	#11
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	I'm not saying the entire piece is Indian, just the blade. The lettering could be a post-manufacture add-on but the profile of the blade, the fullering and the umbrella/parasol mark are quite Indian. The crown is unusual with the parasol mark. We have to remember that blades from India can be found in East European and Western mounts. Look at the spine of this blade. This form of blade from India often, not always, will have a recessed or fullered spine and this feature is not common in blades from other parts of the world. I doubt the blade is in good enough polish to see if it is watered or not and being from India it could be anything but take it into good sunlight and see if you can notice any pattern welding or other watering. Also, it appears there is the slightest hint of a "ricasso" at the cutting edge of the blade near the hilt which is quite reminescent of some Indian blades which are sharpened a few inches down from the hilt and over long periods of time can be "indented" quite a bit. In thinking about the script, there are a number of Indian blades that have European style lettering that is basically non-descript, done in imitation of European markings. This script reminds me of some of those examples.

22nd June 2011, 10:52 PM	#15
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Rick, I am fully with you, the blade is Indian - to my opinion NW but I may be wrong. Jens

22nd June 2011, 11:42 PM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	I was wondering about that parasol and the sun - a trade to Ethiopia? (they have different forms of Hamsa).

23rd June 2011, 12:32 AM	#20
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Interesting sword indeed. I too would not be surprised if the blade was Indian. The 'script' has runic elements, common across Europe, probably added later. The other noticeable thing is that when the sword is gripped you are effectively 'shaking its hand'. Perhaps relavent....perhaps not. The shaking of hands is symbolic of being unarmed/non threatening (as most people are right handed ....you would have to either 'sheath' your weapon or place it in the left ...to be able to 'offer' your right hand. (unless you happen to be a left hander (sinister) and had murderous intent Regards David

23rd June 2011, 01:59 AM	#21
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Not so sure about the hand-shaking part implied here; when you grasp someone's hand it is thumb to thumb. Suggest the hand is 'sinistre' in the intention of the hilt form . The rings for the missing chain point to right handed use .

23rd June 2011, 02:36 AM	#22
Redjack Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 1	The script seems to be cyrillic. Anyone with a knowledge of Russian should decipher it. When the sword is held, is it comfortable to wield?, or does it seem purely ornamental or ceremonial?

23rd June 2011, 07:20 AM	#23
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	I would love to see the entire profile of the blade. The raised forte, and raised yelman(?) suggest Eastern Europe (Hungarian-Polish), Ottoman, maybe Chinese. Jeff

23rd June 2011, 08:44 AM	#25
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 701	Redjack: The script is neither old, nor new Cyrillic...

23rd June 2011, 11:15 AM	#26
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Not sure it is this at all, but the script reminds me of this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Hungarian_script There are a number of old script forms and alphabets in central Europe, so while it may not be this one I am semi positive it is from the general area.

23rd June 2011, 12:59 PM	#27
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Agree with Tatiana: the script is definitely not Cyrillic. There is an eagle on the blade, looking suspiciously like the USA. The inscription confirms it: "E pluribus unum". In short- USA blade, 19-20 century. Who reworked it, and in what style, is a separate question. The quillon on one side looks somewhat "nabour-ish", isn't it?

23rd June 2011, 02:43 PM	#29
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Wow. What a cool sword. Note that the guard seems to be shaped as the cuff of a likely ceremonial vestment of some kind. Is there any known gesture, used in religious or lodge practice, perhaps, where one grips one's own left hand in the manner one grips this hilt? I had a straight Spanish cavalry "saber" with a spine fuller. Beautiful sword. Very rust-pitted, but I sharpened it up for a friend who needed a sword. Love the spine fuller. Love the peaked spine. I love that spine they do on pesh kabz and salawar yatagans sometimes, where the spine has its own little round-topped midrib...... I love the spine groove.... Is the hilt cast on to the tang on this sword, or how is it attached, if you don't mind answering?

23rd June 2011, 04:10 PM	#30
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	The script may resemble the runic characters, but in a way of imitation. I don't think there is any meaning to them in the conventional sense, i.e. these are not abbreviations of anything in the Western vernacular. In other words, they have nothing to do with the abbreviated inscriptions on the Viking period swords, in my opinion. Here's an additional shot of the blade. Ceremonial/secret society vestment purpose might be the answer, among other things. The script may represent a societal code of some sort. Attached Images