Dapur question ?

[danny1976]

Hello everybody ,


I have a nice executed blade , but i need some help with the dapur ...someone a idea ?

And maybe the age ? I know it,s a difficult question


Regards,

Danny

[Jean]

Hello Danny,
Just my opinion: The pamor is oddly interrupted by the sogokans especially on the reverse side so I wonder whether the sogokans were added later and in this case the original dapur would be Sempaner, or Kanda Basuki if there is a sraweyan (classification from the EK).
Best regards
Jean

[danny1976]

Hello Jean,


Thanks for your replay , but i don,t believe that the ad/cut the sogokans .

On the photo it,s not so clear but when i have the blade in my hand you can see the pamor going true in the sogokans and also in the ganja .
So the me it looks like a good blade and not a reshaped blade , and second this blade is in Holland for almost 80 years and i will believe that the also reshaped blades in that time but not so much as the do now days in Indonesia to make a blade more nice for the market .

But of course i can be wrong

regards,

danny

[Jean]

Hello Danny,
Of course there is pamor under the sogokans but the repeating pamor motif looks "broken" at this level.
If the blade is in its original condition, then according to the EK and the book "Dhapur" it is out of pakem. However you can look in the book "Keris - Daya Magic, etc...) from Ki Hudoyo Doyodipuro, which describes 380 types of straight Javanese dapurs (basically according to the Surakarta pakem as I was told), and you may find it, good luck!
And other opinions are welcome!

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by Jean

...The pamor is oddly interrupted by the sogokans especially on the reverse side so I wonder whether the sogokans were added later and in this case the original dapur would be Sempaner, or Kanda Basuki if there is a sraweyan (classification from the EK).
Best regards
Jean

I see what you mean with the pamor being interrupted. They would better have stopped a little lower.
But does this mean the sogokans where added later ?

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm afraid that I'm a bit lost here.

I cannot understand what you mean by "interrupted pamor" Jean.

When the forging for the keris was made, there would have been pamor from one end to the other.

When the sogokan were cut, they would have been cut through the pamor.

If the core was not quite centered --- which is very frequently the case --- the sogokan could be cut to the same depth and pamor could occur in one, and not in the other. The only way to avoid this is by using the "crossed V" method of construction, but this is usually only found in very high quality keris.One would not expect to find it in a keris of this quality.

This blade has suffered from much erosion, due to age, because of this, some layers of pamor have been lost.

If I look at this blade I see pretty much what I would expect to see in a blade that is in this deteriorated condition. Old blades very seldom look like new blades, especially when they have remained in country of origin for a lengthy period.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'm afraid that I'm a bit lost here.

I cannot understand what you mean by "interrupted pamor" Jean.
If I look at this blade I see pretty much what I would expect to see in a blade that is in this deteriorated condition. Old blades very seldom look like new blades, especially when they have remained in country of origin for a lengthy period.

Hello Alan and Willem,
I understand your difficulty to follow my point and again this is just my opinion from the pictures which are insufficient to make an accurate statement. I will try to be more explicit but you may still fully disagree with me!
When I look at the pictures of this blade, I feel something wrong aesthetically: for me such a repeating pamor (Bendo Sagodo?) should extend and be clearly visible to the base of the blade such as shown on my pictures, i.e I feel that it does not match with a dapur including sogokans.
Furthermore the sogokans do not seem to be well made, for instance on the top pictures their height is different and the janur does not look straight (and very thin on the back side). Of course this could be due to wear but this strengthens my impression that they were carved later.
Best regards
Jean

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Alan and Willem,
I understand your difficulty to follow my point and again this is just my opinion from the pictures which are insufficient to make an accurate statement. I will try to be more explicit but you may still fully disagree with me!
When I look at the pictures of this blade, I feel something wrong aesthetically: for me such a repeating pamor (Bendo Sagodo?) should extend and be clearly visible to the base of the blade such as shown on my pictures, i.e I feel that it does not match with a dapur including sogokans.
Furthermore the sogokans do not seem to be well made, for instance on the top pictures their height is different and the janur does not look straight (and very thin on the back side). Of course this could be due to wear but this strengthens my impression that they were carved later.
Best regards
Jean

Hello Jean,

sorry, but I also don't think that the sogokan was added later since I agree in this point complete with Alan. That the two sogokan have a little bit different heigh you can found by many blades. You have a numerous collection byself, check your blades and I am nearly sure that you will find this fact by some blades, I have done it by my collection and found it as well.
That the janur is thin seems in my eyes the effect of the age and the wear. That it isn't straight at one point may be the result from a not careful handling of the blade in it's history.
And why should have someone added later the sogokan? I don't think that the work is worth the apprecation value.

I think that Danny have added a nice old blade to his collection with a eccentric dhapur which I can't name.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

BTW, have this keris a sarung?

[rasdan]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The only way to avoid this is by using the "crossed V" method of construction, but this is usually only found in very high quality keris.One would not expect to find it in a keris of this quality.

G'day Alan,

Can you please explain what is the crossed V method and how can we look for the signs of this method of construction on a keris? Thank you.

Rasdan

[Gustav]

Actually if a keris has some condong leleh, it looks much better when sogokan and janur are bent, otherwise it would have this terribly stiff look.

[danny1976]

everybody thanks for joining the discussion.

for myself i also still have the opinion that the keris is original and not a keris that they upgraded by cutting the sogokans.
I brought it last sunday to a meeting and showed it to some collectors that are well known here in Holland and some other country,s . The also have the opinion that the blade is original.


also maybe a step closer to the dapur , could it be Balu Balan ?
Someone told me that he thinks this is the dapur .

I.M.O the pamor is ''just'' Beras Wutha and not a kind of Bendo sagodo.



@ Sajen,

yes there is a waranka , but not original i found this blade in a east Jawa waranka but the fitting was terrible so i did look for a other waranka and it is now in a Waranka from Solo .

[Gustav]

Original wrongko can be seen here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13482. In this ensemble the wrong part is the hilt.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Jean,

sorry, but I also don't think that the sogokan was added later since I agree in this point complete with Alan.

Regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef,
Thank you for your opinion, and for convincing me please show us some specimens of Javanese blades with such type of repeating circular pamor motifs (Bendo Sagodo, Melati Rinonce, Kebu Tineret, etc) and with a dapur including sogokans. Personally I have none.
Best regards
Jean

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Detlef,
Thank you for your opinion, and for convincing me please show us some specimens of Javanese blades with such type of repeating circular pamor motifs (Bendo Sagodo, Melati Rinonce, Kebu Tineret, etc) and with a dapur including sogokans. Personally I have none.
Best regards
Jean

Hello Jean,

I only have observed about the different lenght from the sogokan without the reflection of the pamor. BTW write Danny that the pamor is wos wutah. A blade like you write I also don't have. But now I understand what you mean by interrupted pamor.

Best regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Original wrongko can be seen here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13482. In this ensemble the wrong part is the hilt.

Hello Gustav,

thank you, you have a very good memory!

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Rasdan, here is a copy of a page from a text book that was prepared about 100 years ago for use by Surakarta Karaton mpus.

I think it shows clearly what I mean by "crossed V".

The result of this type of construction is that the sorsoran area of a blade is solid pamor.

[rasdan]

I see.. thanks Alan..

What does the top and bottom left diagram actually shows?

Do we have to made the curls (top diagram) individually and stack and weld them together?

Why does the bottom left diagram sliced in the middle? By the look of the crossed V diagram, it is sliced along the thin side.

Sorry, I have no forging experience whatsoever..

[A. G. Maisey]

You stack the curls and weld them, then you split the curls with a blunt hot chisel, then you weld the billet back together again along the split. The splitting with a blunt chisel drags down the grain of the metal to give the pattern its form.

When the split has been welded back together you split it through its width and then weld in the core as a V, which gives it a point and edges, but provides pamor depth through the centre.

Nearly everybody with a keris interest has no knowledge of forge work Rasdan, let alone pattern welding. But we all do need a little of this knowledge, because without it we cannot really read pamor. If all we see is the result, its a bit like seeing a car run down the road at 100 miles an hour, but having no understanding of how it does that.

[Gustav]

Alan,

are the pamor bars in this case made tapered from beginning on (becouse curls at the tip should be smaller)?

Are the V shaped pamor bars later already more or less keris shaped?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Gustav, the individual bars that are curled at each end are forged down to taper to the end, before being curled.

No, the billet is not more less keris shaped when it is welded together.

I will anticipate your next question:-

how is the billet forged to shape without the pamor motif being distorted?

sorry I am not permitted to answer this question

[Gustav]

Thank you, Alan.

As you wrote, more complex pamor occured around 1900. Is this kind of forging bound to elaborate pamor and occured about the same time, or is it older? I remember to have seen pictures of a badly worn older blade, where the edges seemed to be inserted (?). It seemed like a kind of forging similar to some Japanese technics to me at this time.

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, it costs a lot of money to make a complex pamor miring using the traditional methods.

In fact it costs an enormous amount of money when that cost is measured against average Javanese income at any time prior to WWII

Because of this and also because of the population levels of Jawa as we go back in time, there were not a lot of people in old periods of Javanese history who could afford to have a keris with a complex pamor. I have seen blades that can be conservatively dated to the 16th and 17th centuries that have complex pamor miring, but any blade with this type of pamor from that period of time must have been the work of a very skilled maker, probably an mpu, and to have been made for a wealthy and important person.

As for this crossed V method of constructing a blade, I have seen evidence of it occurring in blades from the Mataram Senopaten tangguh, and I have only handled blades with pamor wos wutah that have used this cross V construction. Thus it is not limited to only complex pamors, and it is not a product of later technology.

European blades also used a technique where the body of the blade was constructed with a pattern weld, originating from the necessity to wring the impurities from bog iron, and the edge of higher quality steel was inserted.

Complex pamors have been around for a long time, but they are found very, very seldom in genuinely old blades, and when they are found they are usually in very deteriorated condition.

Complex pamors that rely on surface manipulation of a wos wutah base are more often found, but I think it has only been with the resurgence of the keris since about 1980 that we have seen a proliferation of well executed, artistic pamor motifs, often of a type that has not previously been seen. This entrepreneurial spirit of present day pattern welders has resulted in a lot of pamor motifs that really are very difficult to align with traditional pamor motifs.

[Gustav]

Alan,

my last questions regarding the drawing you posted.

Would it be much more difficult to make such pamor in this way (crossed V) then with full slorok?

If yes, is this a kind of exercise or examination?

As I understand at the moment, the crossed V method could probably been invented becouse of practical reasons. Are there spiritual motivations for it, probably later developed?

Thank you very much.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Gustav, it is more difficult than making the usual sandwich.

To my knowledge this method did not have any significance other than that it was a superior method used by skilled makers on high quality blades. It does have several practical reasons for its existence, apart from the solid pamor core, it uses less of the expensive steel than the sandwich.

I know of no possible spiritual motivation for the use of this method.

[dewaruci]

Hi Danny ...
In my opinion, your kris is still original, I also have a collection similar to yours, I think of materials is similar with iron, pamor and from the same era, but have 5 luks with dapur 'Pendowo Cinarito'.
I think the addition of a new 'sogokan' can be seen on the smoothness or fineness surface in blade, the old blades that made ​​the new 'sogokan' will usually looks very smooth and flat so that almost no visible corrosion on the iron, or could be still seen from bad work results, but also the need of accuracy, because sometimes after new added 'ricikan' made, the ​​dagger will be processed by certain liquid for add corrosion.
So in this case we need to see a variety of precision and compare from a lot of keris.

[danny1976]

Hi dewaruci,

Thank you for showing your keris .
From the photo,s your blade looks a lot like mine , of course different dapur.

Do you have a idea about the age of your blade ?

[dewaruci]

I think this keris of the Mataram kingdom era, and from the opinion of some my friends, they thought possibility from the 'Mataram Srimanganti' era (Mataram kingdom after Sultan agung king, around the 17th century and Srimanganti is name from the room in Mataram royal palace, but not mean that this keris was made in the palace), in their opinion is based on the metal, pamor, and style.