A Very Interesting Kriss...But Where From??

CharlesS · 14th April 2011, 10:35 PM

As some of you know, I LOVE cross cultural examples of weapons, what some might call anomalies. This is surely one.

This kriss/keris has clear influences of both Moro and Malay styles. The sword is 25.5in. overall with a heavy, thick pamor blade of 19in. The blade is held in place by a classic baca-baca style "stirrup". The hilt is heavily influenced by Moro types with a carved ivory cockatoo pommel decorated in three panels of floral motifs, with a fiber wrapped haft set with carved ivory rings and even an ivory ferrule.

This is clearly a status piece, even with a battle worthy blade. Every element of it is quite delicately and elegantly made. Perhaps a presentation piece or a gift?

While I cannot be 100% sure of its origins, my take on it is that it is a late 19th, or early 20th century Malay...or even possibly Indonesian take, or "imitation", of a Moro style kriss. That is, not Moro made, or used, but strictly a Moro style imitated.

The scabbard is thin and elegant, and beautifully patinated.

The pics cannot begin to do justice to the lovely honey toned patina on all the ivory.

I would love more input on this oddity.

Battara · 14th April 2011, 11:42 PM

Definitely Malay. The shape of the pommel tail is indicative of that as well as the realistic okir. Also the ivory spacers are un-Moro, never mind the scabbard and the blade shape.

Nathaniel · 15th April 2011, 12:26 AM

Nothing to contribute. Beautiful though. Congrats, Charles! Thanks for sharing!

kai · 15th April 2011, 08:45 AM

Hello CharlesS,

Thanks for bringing this on!

Quote:

While I cannot be 100% sure of its origins, my take on it is that it is a late 19th, or early 20th century Malay...or even possibly Indonesian take, or "imitation", of a Moro style kriss. That is, not Moro made, or used, but strictly a Moro style imitated.

I do agree that this seems to have been done for the Malay market; I don't think it's fair to call this an "imitated Moro style" though since sundang are well established in Malay culture and nothing in this piece does hint at Moro craftmanship or style. Any other hints of age except the ivory patina like the usual hairline cracks, wear to the bindings, etc.?

The blade is an anomaly and certainly not a sundang blade as usually crafted on the Malay peninsula. The pamor looks conspiciously Balinese to me but the dapur seems odd again - let me check. Hopefully the keris crowd will chime in here, too.

BTW, the clamp is not connected to the hilt, isn't it?

Regards,
Kai

David · 15th April 2011, 01:10 PM

I could be off, but something about this doesn't sit right with me, making me question it's age...

Gustav · 15th April 2011, 01:41 PM

Greneng don't look Balinese.

A question - is the ivory collar on sheath mouth a replacement, or the original collar has been found and repaired?

Here the tiny pictures of Junkman

from ebay a year ago, where it popped up.

CharlesS · 15th April 2011, 04:59 PM

Gustav,

Yes, this piece had the ivory restored(in combination with what was still there) at the collar or mouth of the scabbard.

I agree...though Indonesian kerises are not my specialty...this is not a Balinese blade, though at first glance it has a smooth finish like some Balinese blades...when you actually feel it, is is not smooth. Nothing else, other than perhaps the size, suggests Balinese in my mind, even in my limited knowledge of that subject.

Kai,

I couldn't agree more on the Malay association, but to say there is absolutely no Moro influence here, then we will have to agree to disagree. I am not familar with any other Malay or Indonesian weapon with this hilt style(pommel....wrapped handle...with rings). I think the initial appearance(of the hilt alone) is Moro even if upon closer inspection it clearly is not Moro made. If you want to say that the Malay sundang is a separate style of weapon from the Moro kriss, then that becomes another argument altogether, one that raises the ire of some Moro collectors. I got into exactly that conversation with collectors in Baltimore, with no concensus.

The baca baca is attached to the hilt.

David,

The flash and my poor lighting betray the patina to the ivory and wood and even the cord wrap. My pics make it look "gleaming" when it is not. There is no doubt it has some real age on it, and is not a dyed or "shoepolish" job.

This is definitely not a combat weapon, even though it is beautifully balanced. Actually, I wonder if it was ever even meant to be taken out of the the scabbard, but the patina to the ivory hilt and the upper portion of the scabbard makes it clear that it has been well handled. Again, I think this is some sort of status piece, or perhaps even presentation piece, but having handled it, it is definitely too much invested in "weapons art" to be remotely associated with anything cheap or touristy.

Spunjer · 16th April 2011, 12:48 AM

nice kris, charles! should you get tired of it, i'm standing in line with no one in front of me

ok, here's a small quiz:

what does these pictures have in common?

Spunjer · 16th April 2011, 01:25 AM

upper left is a sikh mercenary. the rest are blades we associate from different parts of asia. a jambiya with an unusual blade, another jambiya and two different mandaus...

the sikh was a personal bodyguard of Sultan Kiram. he actually had a squad of sikh bodyguards. the blades were all provenanced in moroland. of interest is the mandau at the bottom which was given as a gift to (then) Col. Webb Hayes, an american officer, by one Datu Fantog. added below is a steel halbred of the Swiss Pontifical Guard that was given to Mr. Hayes by the Sultan himself. this was all back in 1899, before the Moro Uprisings. Mindanao and Sulu were some pretty busy crossroads back in those days...

my point is, whose to say the blade on Charles' kris wasn't acquired in indo, brought back to sulu, and had a native panday applied the rest of the dress? not a common okir you say? maybe the panday was non-muslim

hypothetically if that's the case, wouldn't the kris as a whole be of sulu provenance? or would it still be called an indo keris?

hence my apprehension on static identification of moro kris...

CharlesS · 16th April 2011, 03:24 AM

Hey Spunjer! Thanks, and very interesting insights. I agree that the mysteries of the trade routes will always leave room for us to recognise there is so much we will never know, at least by way of documentation.

VVV · 16th April 2011, 09:44 AM

All the dress features scream top notch Malaysia but as Kai and David and has indicated the blade doesn't, both the greneng and the Javanese use of warangan.
Maybe the original owner ordered the blade in Indonesia and the fittings were made later locally?
Based on the high quality of the dress he maybe both could affford it and had the connections?
Below is a (another?) refitted (smaller) Javanese blade in a Sundang dress.

Michael

Gustav · 16th April 2011, 11:08 AM

Actually this greneng also don't look like Javanese. The small detail, which helps to fix the clamp over the gandhik - I have never seen something like this on a Javanese keris. It would be worth to look with magnifying glass, if this detail is welded on or original, also, if there are some changes at the places, where the clamp meets gonjo.

Charles - regarding the patina on ivory - if I understand right, about 50% of collar and one ring on handle are replacements? Yet colour seems to be exact the same on all ivory parts.

Michael - your example looks like some blades, which are exactly between Madura and Bugis, this one even slightly more (Sumatran?) Bugis.

A. G. Maisey · 16th April 2011, 01:54 PM

You're correct Gustav:- the greneng on Charles' blade is very definitely not Javanese, nor is it Balinese. In fact I cannot identify what pattern this greneng is. I do not know where this blade was made, only where it was not made.

There is a similar problem with the blade shown by Michael, it is most definitely not Javanese, it does display some Madura characteristics, but not consistently, nor strongly enough to definitely tag it as Madura. I don't know where it is from, but I do know it was not made in Jawa.

Spunjer · 16th April 2011, 11:17 PM

Here's a snippet that might be of interest to you, Charles, in regards to on how cultures mingled back in those days on that little corner of the world.

The Sulu Archipelago seems to have become the dumping ground for the Oriental world. Here you find renegade Arabs; native Indian soldiers, for whom India has become too hot; even the Sudan, bad as it is, occasionally has a man so bad, he has to drift to Sulu. Like a Western mining camp of old, Sulu is full of adventure. - John F. Bass, Harper's Weekly, November 18, 1899

That little inside joke, on finding a wootz kris blade, might not be so far fetched, after all...

A. G. Maisey · 17th April 2011, 12:34 AM

Wootz in Javanese keris is not at all far fetched.

It has been positively identified in the examinations carried out by Prof. Jerzy Piaskowski, I have handled Javanese blades that I considered to be of wootz, and it is known as "pamor urap-urap" ( hurap-hurap, urab-urab, hurab-hurab) in Solo.

It is mentioned by Harsinuksmo, but regrettably his illustration of this pamor does not agree in the slightest degree with the actual pamor.

14th April 2011, 10:35 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	A Very Interesting Kriss...But Where From?? As some of you know, I LOVE cross cultural examples of weapons, what some might call anomalies. This is surely one. This kriss/keris has clear influences of both Moro and Malay styles. The sword is 25.5in. overall with a heavy, thick pamor blade of 19in. The blade is held in place by a classic baca-baca style "stirrup". The hilt is heavily influenced by Moro types with a carved ivory cockatoo pommel decorated in three panels of floral motifs, with a fiber wrapped haft set with carved ivory rings and even an ivory ferrule. This is clearly a status piece, even with a battle worthy blade. Every element of it is quite delicately and elegantly made. Perhaps a presentation piece or a gift? While I cannot be 100% sure of its origins, my take on it is that it is a late 19th, or early 20th century Malay...or even possibly Indonesian take, or "imitation", of a Moro style kriss. That is, not Moro made, or used, but strictly a Moro style imitated. The scabbard is thin and elegant, and beautifully patinated. The pics cannot begin to do justice to the lovely honey toned patina on all the ivory. I would love more input on this oddity. Attached Images

15th April 2011, 01:41 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Greneng don't look Balinese. A question - is the ivory collar on sheath mouth a replacement, or the original collar has been found and repaired? Here the tiny pictures of Junkman from ebay a year ago, where it popped up. Attached Images

16th April 2011, 12:48 AM	#8
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	nice kris, charles! should you get tired of it, i'm standing in line with no one in front of me ok, here's a small quiz: what does these pictures have in common? Attached Images Last edited by Spunjer; 16th April 2011 at 01:56 AM.

16th April 2011, 01:25 AM	#9
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	upper left is a sikh mercenary. the rest are blades we associate from different parts of asia. a jambiya with an unusual blade, another jambiya and two different mandaus... the sikh was a personal bodyguard of Sultan Kiram. he actually had a squad of sikh bodyguards. the blades were all provenanced in moroland. of interest is the mandau at the bottom which was given as a gift to (then) Col. Webb Hayes, an american officer, by one Datu Fantog. added below is a steel halbred of the Swiss Pontifical Guard that was given to Mr. Hayes by the Sultan himself. this was all back in 1899, before the Moro Uprisings. Mindanao and Sulu were some pretty busy crossroads back in those days... my point is, whose to say the blade on Charles' kris wasn't acquired in indo, brought back to sulu, and had a native panday applied the rest of the dress? not a common okir you say? maybe the panday was non-muslim hypothetically if that's the case, wouldn't the kris as a whole be of sulu provenance? or would it still be called an indo keris? hence my apprehension on static identification of moro kris... Attached Images Last edited by Spunjer; 16th April 2011 at 02:44 AM.

16th April 2011, 09:44 AM	#11
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	All the dress features scream top notch Malaysia but as Kai and David and has indicated the blade doesn't, both the greneng and the Javanese use of warangan. Maybe the original owner ordered the blade in Indonesia and the fittings were made later locally? Based on the high quality of the dress he maybe both could affford it and had the connections? Below is a (another?) refitted (smaller) Javanese blade in a Sundang dress. Michael Attached Images

14th April 2011, 11:42 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	Definitely Malay. The shape of the pommel tail is indicative of that as well as the realistic okir. Also the ivory spacers are un-Moro, never mind the scabbard and the blade shape.

15th April 2011, 12:26 AM	#3
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Nothing to contribute. Beautiful though. Congrats, Charles! Thanks for sharing!

15th April 2011, 01:10 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	I could be off, but something about this doesn't sit right with me, making me question it's age...

15th April 2011, 04:59 PM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Gustav, Yes, this piece had the ivory restored(in combination with what was still there) at the collar or mouth of the scabbard. I agree...though Indonesian kerises are not my specialty...this is not a Balinese blade, though at first glance it has a smooth finish like some Balinese blades...when you actually feel it, is is not smooth. Nothing else, other than perhaps the size, suggests Balinese in my mind, even in my limited knowledge of that subject. Kai, I couldn't agree more on the Malay association, but to say there is absolutely no Moro influence here, then we will have to agree to disagree. I am not familar with any other Malay or Indonesian weapon with this hilt style(pommel....wrapped handle...with rings). I think the initial appearance(of the hilt alone) is Moro even if upon closer inspection it clearly is not Moro made. If you want to say that the Malay sundang is a separate style of weapon from the Moro kriss, then that becomes another argument altogether, one that raises the ire of some Moro collectors. I got into exactly that conversation with collectors in Baltimore, with no concensus. The baca baca is attached to the hilt. David, The flash and my poor lighting betray the patina to the ivory and wood and even the cord wrap. My pics make it look "gleaming" when it is not. There is no doubt it has some real age on it, and is not a dyed or "shoepolish" job. This is definitely not a combat weapon, even though it is beautifully balanced. Actually, I wonder if it was ever even meant to be taken out of the the scabbard, but the patina to the ivory hilt and the upper portion of the scabbard makes it clear that it has been well handled. Again, I think this is some sort of status piece, or perhaps even presentation piece, but having handled it, it is definitely too much invested in "weapons art" to be remotely associated with anything cheap or touristy.

16th April 2011, 03:24 AM	#10
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Hey Spunjer! Thanks, and very interesting insights. I agree that the mysteries of the trade routes will always leave room for us to recognise there is so much we will never know, at least by way of documentation.

16th April 2011, 11:08 AM	#12
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Actually this greneng also don't look like Javanese. The small detail, which helps to fix the clamp over the gandhik - I have never seen something like this on a Javanese keris. It would be worth to look with magnifying glass, if this detail is welded on or original, also, if there are some changes at the places, where the clamp meets gonjo. Charles - regarding the patina on ivory - if I understand right, about 50% of collar and one ring on handle are replacements? Yet colour seems to be exact the same on all ivory parts. Michael - your example looks like some blades, which are exactly between Madura and Bugis, this one even slightly more (Sumatran?) Bugis.

16th April 2011, 01:54 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,895	You're correct Gustav:- the greneng on Charles' blade is very definitely not Javanese, nor is it Balinese. In fact I cannot identify what pattern this greneng is. I do not know where this blade was made, only where it was not made. There is a similar problem with the blade shown by Michael, it is most definitely not Javanese, it does display some Madura characteristics, but not consistently, nor strongly enough to definitely tag it as Madura. I don't know where it is from, but I do know it was not made in Jawa.

16th April 2011, 11:17 PM	#14
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Here's a snippet that might be of interest to you, Charles, in regards to on how cultures mingled back in those days on that little corner of the world. The Sulu Archipelago seems to have become the dumping ground for the Oriental world. Here you find renegade Arabs; native Indian soldiers, for whom India has become too hot; even the Sudan, bad as it is, occasionally has a man so bad, he has to drift to Sulu. Like a Western mining camp of old, Sulu is full of adventure. - John F. Bass, Harper's Weekly, November 18, 1899 That little inside joke, on finding a wootz kris blade, might not be so far fetched, after all...

17th April 2011, 12:34 AM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,895	Wootz in Javanese keris is not at all far fetched. It has been positively identified in the examinations carried out by Prof. Jerzy Piaskowski, I have handled Javanese blades that I considered to be of wootz, and it is known as "pamor urap-urap" ( hurap-hurap, urab-urab, hurab-hurab) in Solo. It is mentioned by Harsinuksmo, but regrettably his illustration of this pamor does not agree in the slightest degree with the actual pamor.