Afghan Peshkabz

Aurangzeb · 30th June 2005, 05:53 AM

Hello all!

I have finally succeded in buying an Afghan peshkabz

! I was told that it is 19th century. The grip is either ivory or a bone, filled with a red paste design. The blade is sturdy T-section blade and had only some old dry black rust on it which I was able to clean off with ease. It shows only medium amounts of wear. The scabbard is wood, covered with cloth which seems to be coated with a rubbary coating to preserve it. The blade curves up very slightly. This is NOT the piece I had to clean old laquer from. Were these worn tucked in a sash? It has a 9 1/4" blade and a 4 1/2" handle.
On the spine of the dagger is a minarette or mosque shaped dome that is flat.
Overall very sturdy and well built, it is now my favorite dagger in my collection and is my "flagship" dagger.

Last question which is unrelated directly, was Bactria in Afghanistan or Uzbekistan?
Any help would, as always, be most appreciated ! Thank you !

Mark..

Ian · 1st July 2005, 06:26 AM

Aurangzeb:

Bactria (Balkh) is referenced historically as having been part of Afghanistan. There is a map of the old Kashan Empire here, showing the location of Bactria: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/kush/hd_kush_d1map.htm

If you would, can you explain the distinction between an Afghan "pesh kabz" and a "choora," and why this knife is a pesh kabz.

With respect to the wearing of an Afghan choora, at least some Afghans use a baldric type of suspension system. There were pictures of this on the old Forum site. The scabbard was similar to the one shown in the old thread, so it may also have been worn in a similar manner.

This is that old thread but the pictures are no longer available: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000697.html

Ian.

Aurangzeb · 2nd July 2005, 05:30 PM

Hi Ian!

I only came to my conclusion off of the auction told me. Maybe someone on the forum chould clairify for me. Thanks for telling me where Bactira was thats been bugging me.

RobT · 4th July 2005, 07:06 AM

Ian,
I believe the pesh kabz has a fatter grip and as a consequence the hooked pommel is not as pronounced. Stone on pg 494 says pesh kabz means foregrip and shows both straight and recurved pesh kabz blades. I have never seen a recurved choora blade. Stone (pg 338) calls the straight pesh kabz blade a karud. From what I have in my collection, the karud blades vary from looking very much like choora blades to looking like minature Khyber knife blades. I also have a choora hilted piece with a minature Khyber knife style blade. Given this, I wonder if it isn't the hilt that defines the type.
Sincerely,
RobT

Ian · 4th July 2005, 01:16 PM

Thanks Rob.

That makes sense. I have not heard the distinction based on the hilt before -- wonder if others have the same interpretation.

Ian.

Aurangzeb · 5th July 2005, 04:11 AM

Hi all!

After hearing this I whould say that sounds most likely. I never looked at the grip as the defining point before. Instead I spent hours reading and re-reading books and text on te internet as well as studing pictures until 11:00 at night with a head ache!

( my eye docter says I should cut back on my reading! ). Thanks for all the help.

Jens Nordlunde · 5th July 2005, 10:33 PM

What would you call this one?

Lew · 5th July 2005, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

What would you call this one?

I would call it very perdy(pretty)

Maybe a khanjar?

Lew

Aurangzeb · 6th July 2005, 02:07 AM

Hi Jens!

Very nice, I am filled with envy!

I might be wrong but this looks to be a khanjarli dagger from India or some sort of khanjar. Nice gold work on it, is it a wootz blade? Hopefully this chould be of some help.

Maah as-salaama!
(good-bye in arabic)

RobT · 6th July 2005, 04:25 AM

Jens,
I would call it a drop dead gorgeous pesh kabz. That is the most beautiful recurved dagger I have ever seen. It's more deeply recurved than the one on pg 494 of Stone's but the general look is the same.
Lew,
I don't believe it's a khanjar. None of the blades so named in Stone's (pg 353) show a T-rib. On the other hand, I believe khanjar just means knife so there might be T-rib versions.
Aurangzeb,
If Stone is to be believed on pgs 352 and 354, the khanjarli is a double edged recurved dagger with a large lunette pommel.
Sincerely,
RobT

Rick · 6th July 2005, 04:31 AM

Karud , Pesh , Choora ?
And why ?

Jens Nordlunde · 6th July 2005, 03:24 PM

Aurangzeb, the one I showed is not a Khanjarli, it looks like this.

derek · 6th July 2005, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Karud , Pesh , Choora ?
And why ?

Karud. From Bhukara?

BTW, I have asked a dozen afghan antique dealers and none have heard of the term "choora". But then again, they were city folk from Kabul........

Jens Nordlunde · 6th July 2005, 05:35 PM

Aurangzeb, I am sorry that I did nor answer your question about the Pesh Kabz. Yes the blade is of wootz. Her is another picture of the blade.

Aurangzeb · 7th July 2005, 12:37 AM

Hi Jens!

In the book I was looking in it has no pictures so I was going off the description, I was too lazy to find my other book with pictures in it!

So I grabbed the closest one! Thanks for corecting my mistake about the khanjarli. That really is a butiful dagger I like the gold work on it and the bulb shaped tip for piercing chainmail.

P.S.- What is this "Stones" book I hear so much about anyway?

Rick · 7th July 2005, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurangzeb

Hi Jens!

In the book I was looking in it has no pictures so I was going off the description, I was too lazy to find my other book with pictures in it!

So I grabbed the closest one! Thanks for corecting my mistake about the khanjarli. That really is a butiful dagger I like the gold work on it and the bulb shaped tip for piercing chainmail.

P.S.- What is this "Stones" book I hear so much about anyway?

http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/...L?bi=528094009

Aurangzeb · 8th July 2005, 01:19 AM

Hi Rick!

Thanks for the link to the book site I will buy it as soon as I have some extra cash!

I just bought a Persian 5-prong jambiya so my funds are spent until my father gets his paycheck tommorow.

ariel · 8th July 2005, 09:19 PM

As a personal (and bitterly earned.....) advise: before buying any more blades, get a copy of the Stone's book . Then take a month off, sit down, read it and......enjoy! DO NOT buy anything during that time.
Many people will criticize Stone to the end and will cite hair-splitting errors (in their learned opinion, of course!) all over the book. Ignore them: there is no better overall guide than this one.When you absorb Stone, start reading specialized books: Elgood on Arabian swords, Cato on Moro swords, etc. I think, a good collector should have a pound of reference material per every 10 pounds of metal, with Stone as a foundation.

Aurangzeb · 9th July 2005, 06:08 AM

Hi Ariel!

Thanks for the advise I will keep it in mind when I get the book.

Only one problem, I have "EBD" (Exessive Buying Disorder). When I see something I like I become obsessed until I get it!

It will be hard to lay off the buying for a month.

30th June 2005, 05:53 AM	#1
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Afghan Peshkabz Hello all! I have finally succeded in buying an Afghan peshkabz ! I was told that it is 19th century. The grip is either ivory or a bone, filled with a red paste design. The blade is sturdy T-section blade and had only some old dry black rust on it which I was able to clean off with ease. It shows only medium amounts of wear. The scabbard is wood, covered with cloth which seems to be coated with a rubbary coating to preserve it. The blade curves up very slightly. This is NOT the piece I had to clean old laquer from. Were these worn tucked in a sash? It has a 9 1/4" blade and a 4 1/2" handle. On the spine of the dagger is a minarette or mosque shaped dome that is flat. Overall very sturdy and well built, it is now my favorite dagger in my collection and is my "flagship" dagger. Last question which is unrelated directly, was Bactria in Afghanistan or Uzbekistan? Any help would, as always, be most appreciated ! Thank you ! Mark.. Attached Images

4th July 2005, 07:06 AM	#4
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 489	Choora vs Pesh Kabz Ian, I believe the pesh kabz has a fatter grip and as a consequence the hooked pommel is not as pronounced. Stone on pg 494 says pesh kabz means foregrip and shows both straight and recurved pesh kabz blades. I have never seen a recurved choora blade. Stone (pg 338) calls the straight pesh kabz blade a karud. From what I have in my collection, the karud blades vary from looking very much like choora blades to looking like minature Khyber knife blades. I also have a choora hilted piece with a minature Khyber knife style blade. Given this, I wonder if it isn't the hilt that defines the type. Sincerely, RobT

5th July 2005, 10:33 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	What would you call this one? Attached Images

6th July 2005, 04:25 AM	#10
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 489	What a blade Jens, I would call it a drop dead gorgeous pesh kabz. That is the most beautiful recurved dagger I have ever seen. It's more deeply recurved than the one on pg 494 of Stone's but the general look is the same. Lew, I don't believe it's a khanjar. None of the blades so named in Stone's (pg 353) show a T-rib. On the other hand, I believe khanjar just means knife so there might be T-rib versions. Aurangzeb, If Stone is to be believed on pgs 352 and 354, the khanjarli is a double edged recurved dagger with a large lunette pommel. Sincerely, RobT

6th July 2005, 04:31 AM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	So What Shall We Call This Karud , Pesh , Choora ? And why ? Attached Images

1st July 2005, 06:26 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Aurangzeb: Bactria (Balkh) is referenced historically as having been part of Afghanistan. There is a map of the old Kashan Empire here, showing the location of Bactria: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/kush/hd_kush_d1map.htm If you would, can you explain the distinction between an Afghan "pesh kabz" and a "choora," and why this knife is a pesh kabz. With respect to the wearing of an Afghan choora, at least some Afghans use a baldric type of suspension system. There were pictures of this on the old Forum site. The scabbard was similar to the one shown in the old thread, so it may also have been worn in a similar manner. This is that old thread but the pictures are no longer available: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000697.html Ian.

2nd July 2005, 05:30 PM	#3
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi Ian! I only came to my conclusion off of the auction told me. Maybe someone on the forum chould clairify for me. Thanks for telling me where Bactira was thats been bugging me.

4th July 2005, 01:16 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Thanks Rob. That makes sense. I have not heard the distinction based on the hilt before -- wonder if others have the same interpretation. Ian.

5th July 2005, 04:11 AM	#6
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi all! After hearing this I whould say that sounds most likely. I never looked at the grip as the defining point before. Instead I spent hours reading and re-reading books and text on te internet as well as studing pictures until 11:00 at night with a head ache! ( my eye docter says I should cut back on my reading! ). Thanks for all the help.

6th July 2005, 02:07 AM	#9
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi Jens! Very nice, I am filled with envy! I might be wrong but this looks to be a khanjarli dagger from India or some sort of khanjar. Nice gold work on it, is it a wootz blade? Hopefully this chould be of some help. Maah as-salaama! (good-bye in arabic)

6th July 2005, 03:24 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Aurangzeb, the one I showed is not a Khanjarli, it looks like this. Attached Images

6th July 2005, 05:35 PM	#14
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Aurangzeb, I am sorry that I did nor answer your question about the Pesh Kabz. Yes the blade is of wootz. Her is another picture of the blade. Attached Images

7th July 2005, 12:37 AM	#15
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi Jens! In the book I was looking in it has no pictures so I was going off the description, I was too lazy to find my other book with pictures in it! So I grabbed the closest one! Thanks for corecting my mistake about the khanjarli. That really is a butiful dagger I like the gold work on it and the bulb shaped tip for piercing chainmail. P.S.- What is this "Stones" book I hear so much about anyway?

8th July 2005, 01:19 AM	#17
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi Rick! Thanks for the link to the book site I will buy it as soon as I have some extra cash! I just bought a Persian 5-prong jambiya so my funds are spent until my father gets his paycheck tommorow.

8th July 2005, 09:19 PM	#18
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As a personal (and bitterly earned.....) advise: before buying any more blades, get a copy of the Stone's book . Then take a month off, sit down, read it and......enjoy! DO NOT buy anything during that time. Many people will criticize Stone to the end and will cite hair-splitting errors (in their learned opinion, of course!) all over the book. Ignore them: there is no better overall guide than this one.When you absorb Stone, start reading specialized books: Elgood on Arabian swords, Cato on Moro swords, etc. I think, a good collector should have a pound of reference material per every 10 pounds of metal, with Stone as a foundation.

9th July 2005, 06:08 AM	#19
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi Ariel! Thanks for the advise I will keep it in mind when I get the book. Only one problem, I have "EBD" (Exessive Buying Disorder). When I see something I like I become obsessed until I get it! It will be hard to lay off the buying for a month.