karabela

erlikhan · 1st July 2005, 06:54 PM

this belongs to a friend.do you think this can be a fully orginal karabela, with this cross guard, or the guard must be a later replacement to the hilt?
regards

ariel · 1st July 2005, 07:58 PM

Can't see details, but it may well be perfectly original Turkish karabela.
I love this type of weapons: old, scarred, not fancy, faint odor of rotten blood....
Soldier's stuff...

erlikhan · 1st July 2005, 11:23 PM

i've seen very limited number of samples in real till now, and all had short or up curved quillons. and i 've seen this long type guard on mostly 19th c. kilijs.
None of the groups shown in the previous "Polish karabela" topic have such guards. thats why i am confused. so this can be accepted as a new group?

Jeff D · 1st July 2005, 11:27 PM

Hi Erlikhan,

I agree with you, also the grip scales do not match the shape of the grip band.

Jeff

ariel · 2nd July 2005, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Erlikhan,

I agree with you, also the grip scales do not match the shape of the grip band.

Jeff

Could it be just age deformation? Would be good to examine the sword in greater detail.

ariel · 2nd July 2005, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

i've seen very limited number of samples in real till now, and all had short or up curved quillons. and i 've seen this long type guard on mostly 19th c. kilijs.
None of the groups shown in the previous "Polish karabela" topic have such guards. thats why i am confused. so this can be accepted as a new group?

Karabela ("eagle-head")was originally a Turkish sword , probably even named after Karabel (near Izmir), and I would not be surprised to see the "Kilij" guard on one of them. I agree, this looks like a most likely 19th cen creation. What about the blade? Any distinguishing attributes?

erlikhan · 2nd July 2005, 10:35 PM

there are some figures on the blade. i dont know if they will help. But the blade shape is technically a perfect karabela . i really dont know if a place with name "karabel" exists around Izmir, but karabela means exactly "black curse" in Turkish, often used in daily life , even can be used as a nickname for a tough bully .it could be a healthier root for the name of this saber model.
The grip band is silver, and is just deformed by time, tips of broken parts going bent up.

ariel · 3rd July 2005, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

there are some figures on the blade. i dont know if they will help. But the blade shape is technically a perfect karabela . i really dont know if a place with name "karabel" exists around Izmir, but karabela means exactly "black curse" in Turkish, often used in daily life , even can be used as a nickname for a tough bully .it could be a healthier root for the name of this saber model.
The grip band is silver, and is just deformed by time, tips of broken parts going bent up.

It does. Please see..
http://www.livius.org/he-hg/herodotus/hist13.html

erlikhan · 3rd July 2005, 10:00 AM

ah i see. But it's not an establishment, where a sword can be created/developed. Just a mountain pass named " Karabel" is mentioned in the article. Word "Karabel" means "black or (difficult) mountain pass". I am sure there is no town- especially significant and old- with this name in Turkey.
regards

Jim McDougall · 3rd July 2005, 04:26 PM

This seems to be as noted, likely to have been furbished in the 19th century (possibly earlier) and the crossguard appears to be from an Ottoman sabre of that period (probably kilij as noted by Ariel).The grip seems too thin for that crossguard as well, at least from appearance. This only means that what may well be earlier components were put with this guard in the swords working life, and this seems to be, as Ariel notes, a good fighting example.
It is interesting on the discussion of the term 'karabela' and I have of course heard of the plausible thought of the city in Turkey as having suggested the name. This seems quite possible as if I am not mistaken, Islamic swords were often termed by places associated with the origins of form, forging, even materials used for the sword.
On the term it seems even in Poland, where these were adopted as a form of national weapon especially as parade or dress sabres, the term alludes to a Latin root such as including the 'bella' (=beauty) and kara. I think this was in an article which I will have to reference later. Naturally this was presented as another conjectural theory, as the actual origin of the word remains elusive.

In any case, these are always beautiful sabres, and like Ariel, I like the real rough ones, this one is nice!!

Best regards,
Jim

Aqtai · 3rd July 2005, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Karabela ("eagle-head")was originally a Turkish sword , probably even named after Karabel (near Izmir), and I would not be surprised to see the "Kilij" guard on one of them. I agree, this looks like a most likely 19th cen creation. What about the blade? Any distinguishing attributes?

I don't know Turkish (although my pseudonym is Turkish

), however there are a lot of Turkish words in Egytian colloquial Arabic, a Legacy of nearly 400 years of Ottoman rule, preceded by 267 years of Mamluk rule. I think the Turkish for Eagles head would be something like "Qosh bash". Erlikhan, could you confirm that for me.

BTW, in Egypt, Police stations are often called karakol. Totally irrelevant I know, but it does include the word "kara"

.

erlikhan · 3rd July 2005, 11:00 PM

Well, kush bashi is "bird head". karakol is police station in Turkey too. But I guess Ariel meant the shape of the pommel by "eagle head", not a translation. I have been describing it as "like a goat's foot" to someone who doesnt know the name of the model, but eagle head seems good too

It is very interesting that German-Austrian museums have great samples of karabelas from Turk-German wars, but there are uncomparably less or none in Turkish museums, even Military Museum doesnt have a good collection of them. This is perhaps because it was really soldiers' item, and even just infantries'. Not noble cavalries', with their broad and medium long structures. They never had gold or jewel decorations, and never used by princes, pashas.. So they were accepted inferior, not important enough to save and take care of?

1st July 2005, 06:54 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	karabela this belongs to a friend.do you think this can be a fully orginal karabela, with this cross guard, or the guard must be a later replacement to the hilt? regards Attached Images

2nd July 2005, 10:35 PM	#7
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	there are some figures on the blade. i dont know if they will help. But the blade shape is technically a perfect karabela . i really dont know if a place with name "karabel" exists around Izmir, but karabela means exactly "black curse" in Turkish, often used in daily life , even can be used as a nickname for a tough bully .it could be a healthier root for the name of this saber model. The grip band is silver, and is just deformed by time, tips of broken parts going bent up. Attached Images Last edited by erlikhan; 2nd July 2005 at 11:00 PM.

3rd July 2005, 10:00 AM	#9
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	ah i see. But it's not an establishment, where a sword can be created/developed. Just a mountain pass named " Karabel" is mentioned in the article. Word "Karabel" means "black or (difficult) mountain pass". I am sure there is no town- especially significant and old- with this name in Turkey. regards Last edited by erlikhan; 3rd July 2005 at 05:42 PM.

1st July 2005, 07:58 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Can't see details, but it may well be perfectly original Turkish karabela. I love this type of weapons: old, scarred, not fancy, faint odor of rotten blood.... Soldier's stuff...

1st July 2005, 11:23 PM	#3
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	i've seen very limited number of samples in real till now, and all had short or up curved quillons. and i 've seen this long type guard on mostly 19th c. kilijs. None of the groups shown in the previous "Polish karabela" topic have such guards. thats why i am confused. so this can be accepted as a new group?

1st July 2005, 11:27 PM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Erlikhan, I agree with you, also the grip scales do not match the shape of the grip band. Jeff

3rd July 2005, 04:26 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	This seems to be as noted, likely to have been furbished in the 19th century (possibly earlier) and the crossguard appears to be from an Ottoman sabre of that period (probably kilij as noted by Ariel).The grip seems too thin for that crossguard as well, at least from appearance. This only means that what may well be earlier components were put with this guard in the swords working life, and this seems to be, as Ariel notes, a good fighting example. It is interesting on the discussion of the term 'karabela' and I have of course heard of the plausible thought of the city in Turkey as having suggested the name. This seems quite possible as if I am not mistaken, Islamic swords were often termed by places associated with the origins of form, forging, even materials used for the sword. On the term it seems even in Poland, where these were adopted as a form of national weapon especially as parade or dress sabres, the term alludes to a Latin root such as including the 'bella' (=beauty) and kara. I think this was in an article which I will have to reference later. Naturally this was presented as another conjectural theory, as the actual origin of the word remains elusive. In any case, these are always beautiful sabres, and like Ariel, I like the real rough ones, this one is nice!! Best regards, Jim

3rd July 2005, 11:00 PM	#12
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Well, kush bashi is "bird head". karakol is police station in Turkey too. But I guess Ariel meant the shape of the pommel by "eagle head", not a translation. I have been describing it as "like a goat's foot" to someone who doesnt know the name of the model, but eagle head seems good too It is very interesting that German-Austrian museums have great samples of karabelas from Turk-German wars, but there are uncomparably less or none in Turkish museums, even Military Museum doesnt have a good collection of them. This is perhaps because it was really soldiers' item, and even just infantries'. Not noble cavalries', with their broad and medium long structures. They never had gold or jewel decorations, and never used by princes, pashas.. So they were accepted inferior, not important enough to save and take care of?