Unusual hanger with translation needed

wolviex · 25th June 2005, 12:22 PM

Dear All!

This is the hanger - so something what is too long to be a knife, and is too short to be a sword. It has some of the hunting hangers features: one side edged, and double edged point, the measurements (61,3 cm/24,1 inches long), S-shaped quillons, althought a little bigger then on any others known and popular hangers. But this one is quite unusual. Why?

First of all it is trying to pretend 17th century weapon, because of handle which is wrapped with leather, and because of pommel which is oval-shaped. But it is much younger, I think 18th century, late or 2nd half. It could be even 19th century, but my feeling tells me, it is 18th century anyway

. Quillons are quite strange. Very simple, without any decoration, with bevelling fragment in the middle.

Second unusual feature is the blade which is made of 5 (?) wires forged together. Don't know how to call it in English - false damascene? The work isn't first quality, because, as you can see, there are very black and thick lines visible what means (I think) these are the places where the metal wasn't forged as well as it should be. Beside we've got here a very visible pattern on the blade, uncommon for the others hangers I know.

And 3rd. unusual feature are the cartouches on both sides with oriental inscription. Unfortunately I couldn't recognize what is it, and I'm truly sorry if it is upside down or something. Could anyone translate it, please?.

What do you think about this object. Eastern hanger? I haven't heard about using ones in the East. Import? 18th/19th century fake? Someones eccentricity?

Regards!

M.carter · 25th June 2005, 12:42 PM

Hello Wolviex,

The cartouche in the third pic reads "Mubarak Bodar", which is most probably a name.

The cartouche in the fourthe pic says "The first of my prayers".

This doesnt sound arabic to me, as it doesnt make much sense in arabic. Probably Turkish or Persian.

wolviex · 25th June 2005, 12:53 PM

Thanks! You are irreplaceable !!!

not2sharp · 26th June 2005, 07:21 AM

Second unusual feature is the blade which is made of 5 (?) wires forged together.

Recently, US knifemakers have been calling it cable domascus. It is what happens when you forge a blade out of a length of steel cable. Perhaps that helps to date the sword to post industrial revolution; the second half of the 19th century.

An interesting piece, from the size of it, it may have been a hunting sidearm.

n2s

ingelred · 26th June 2005, 11:41 AM

This is no cable damascus but a pattern damascus named Turkish ribbon. This pattern is produced by forging and twisting several bars of damascus steel individually which are than forged together to give the blade a special appearence. This kind of pattern is fairly common on old turkish blades.

Greetings, Helge

wolviex · 26th June 2005, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ingelred

This kind of pattern is fairly common on old turkish blades.

I tend to agree with you, because American origin just doesn't fit me this time

.

My question: "fairly common on old turkish blades" - how old?

Rick · 26th June 2005, 04:00 PM

This is a pretty poor example of Turkish Ribbon , if it is Turkish ribbon .
I think it might possibly be cable , or an apprentice's first attempt at T.R.
With all of the cold shuts I'm left wondering .

Rivkin · 26th June 2005, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

I tend to agree with you, because American origin just doesn't fit me this time

.

Solingen also used to make swords out of steel cables in the second half of XIX century.

wolviex · 26th November 2005, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

What do you think about this object. Eastern hanger? I haven't heard about using ones in the East. Import? 18th/19th century fake? Someones eccentricity?

BUMP!

Any other ideas?

Tim Simmons · 26th November 2005, 04:44 PM

Hello wolviex, I am just making a suggestion based on the artistic taste of the wealthy in the 19th century. I think this is a 19cent made for export hunting hanger that has fused two of the popular art styles of the mid to late 19cent that of the exotic and oriental with renaissance revival (note the quillions and pommel). Here are two pictures of products bought by the Victoria & Albert museum London from the Paris Exhibition in 1867. Okay they are not weapons but they do illustrate how extensive this taste was and the range of products made to cater for it. The jug is bronze, the tazza is kuffgoorie work (that's how they have spelt it) steel damascened, with gold. I hope I have been of help. Tim

tom hyle · 26th November 2005, 04:49 PM

This looks far too irregular for industrial cable; hand-wound, and I, too think, probably Turk-related. The form seems Spanish/Euro-Mediterranean?.....Forging flaws, imperfect welds, etc. are not good, of course, but are far from being any sign of modernity (indeed some modern smiths will argue the opposite).
Damascene usually refers to an applied surface pattern; properly one with either inlays and/or overlays. The term is often confused with damascus. It's a can of worms: Due to various confusions the term Damascus steel which certainly refered to wootz/bulat had come in N America to refer to almost any interestingly structured steel, and particularly to what this blade is; pattern-welded steel (a blade from industrial cable would still qualify in this category, but would just be less hand made).
At a guess a Turkish/E Med. Moslem interpretation of a Spainish/Itallian/etc. dagger?..............This may play in with the grip covering/other nonmatching details; not perhaps "wrong" because of time disparityk but geographoic distance?............guesses and thoughts.
Interesting dagger.
Phone wall thing no phnone still

Tea house tapioca jooint place

Tim Simmons · 26th November 2005, 04:59 PM

Tea house opium den caterpillar

wolviex · 27th November 2005, 01:40 PM

Thank you for next suggestions. You might be right, while in 19th century there was a fashion not only for historical objects, which were mostly falsify, but also for strange, oriental arts, while the tourist markets was on increase, I think. This one might be an example of such weapon, on one hand trying to pretend somethink older, on the other one, with oriental blade, to catch the eye.

25th June 2005, 12:22 PM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Unusual hanger with translation needed Dear All! This is the hanger - so something what is too long to be a knife, and is too short to be a sword. It has some of the hunting hangers features: one side edged, and double edged point, the measurements (61,3 cm/24,1 inches long), S-shaped quillons, althought a little bigger then on any others known and popular hangers. But this one is quite unusual. Why? First of all it is trying to pretend 17th century weapon, because of handle which is wrapped with leather, and because of pommel which is oval-shaped. But it is much younger, I think 18th century, late or 2nd half. It could be even 19th century, but my feeling tells me, it is 18th century anyway . Quillons are quite strange. Very simple, without any decoration, with bevelling fragment in the middle. Second unusual feature is the blade which is made of 5 (?) wires forged together. Don't know how to call it in English - false damascene? The work isn't first quality, because, as you can see, there are very black and thick lines visible what means (I think) these are the places where the metal wasn't forged as well as it should be. Beside we've got here a very visible pattern on the blade, uncommon for the others hangers I know. And 3rd. unusual feature are the cartouches on both sides with oriental inscription. Unfortunately I couldn't recognize what is it, and I'm truly sorry if it is upside down or something. Could anyone translate it, please?. What do you think about this object. Eastern hanger? I haven't heard about using ones in the East. Import? 18th/19th century fake? Someones eccentricity? Regards! Attached Images

26th November 2005, 04:44 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Hello wolviex, I am just making a suggestion based on the artistic taste of the wealthy in the 19th century. I think this is a 19cent made for export hunting hanger that has fused two of the popular art styles of the mid to late 19cent that of the exotic and oriental with renaissance revival (note the quillions and pommel). Here are two pictures of products bought by the Victoria & Albert museum London from the Paris Exhibition in 1867. Okay they are not weapons but they do illustrate how extensive this taste was and the range of products made to cater for it. The jug is bronze, the tazza is kuffgoorie work (that's how they have spelt it) steel damascened, with gold. I hope I have been of help. Tim Attached Images

25th June 2005, 12:42 PM	#2
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Hello Wolviex, The cartouche in the third pic reads "Mubarak Bodar", which is most probably a name. The cartouche in the fourthe pic says "The first of my prayers". This doesnt sound arabic to me, as it doesnt make much sense in arabic. Probably Turkish or Persian.

25th June 2005, 12:53 PM	#3
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thanks! You are irreplaceable !!!

26th June 2005, 07:21 AM	#4
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	Second unusual feature is the blade which is made of 5 (?) wires forged together. Recently, US knifemakers have been calling it cable domascus. It is what happens when you forge a blade out of a length of steel cable. Perhaps that helps to date the sword to post industrial revolution; the second half of the 19th century. An interesting piece, from the size of it, it may have been a hunting sidearm. n2s

26th June 2005, 11:41 AM	#5
ingelred Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany Posts: 62	This is no cable damascus but a pattern damascus named Turkish ribbon. This pattern is produced by forging and twisting several bars of damascus steel individually which are than forged together to give the blade a special appearence. This kind of pattern is fairly common on old turkish blades. Greetings, Helge

26th June 2005, 04:00 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	This is a pretty poor example of Turkish Ribbon , if it is Turkish ribbon . I think it might possibly be cable , or an apprentice's first attempt at T.R. With all of the cold shuts I'm left wondering .

26th November 2005, 04:49 PM	#11
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	This looks far too irregular for industrial cable; hand-wound, and I, too think, probably Turk-related. The form seems Spanish/Euro-Mediterranean?.....Forging flaws, imperfect welds, etc. are not good, of course, but are far from being any sign of modernity (indeed some modern smiths will argue the opposite). Damascene usually refers to an applied surface pattern; properly one with either inlays and/or overlays. The term is often confused with damascus. It's a can of worms: Due to various confusions the term Damascus steel which certainly refered to wootz/bulat had come in N America to refer to almost any interestingly structured steel, and particularly to what this blade is; pattern-welded steel (a blade from industrial cable would still qualify in this category, but would just be less hand made). At a guess a Turkish/E Med. Moslem interpretation of a Spainish/Itallian/etc. dagger?..............This may play in with the grip covering/other nonmatching details; not perhaps "wrong" because of time disparityk but geographoic distance?............guesses and thoughts. Interesting dagger. Phone wall thing no phnone still Tea house tapioca jooint place

26th November 2005, 04:59 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Tea house opium den caterpillar

27th November 2005, 01:40 PM	#13
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you for next suggestions. You might be right, while in 19th century there was a fashion not only for historical objects, which were mostly falsify, but also for strange, oriental arts, while the tourist markets was on increase, I think. This one might be an example of such weapon, on one hand trying to pretend somethink older, on the other one, with oriental blade, to catch the eye.