NZ Maori connection treen rack mystery

Atlantia · 21st November 2010, 07:43 PM

Here's a bit of a puzzle!
Saw this
Beautiful treen rack carved from earlier oak reused timbers, with the famous line from the marching song of the 28th Maori Battalion: 'Ake ake kiakaha': "For ever and ever be strong".
Thought this meant a military connection, but having bought it and looked into it a little further 'St Laurence Northfield' seems to be in the midlands/England. 1909 seems too early and the motto more widely used anyway!
Its a massive rack and I did think I could modify it to house daggers, but I'm thinking I should ID it before I consider hacking it at all. I know the military link is looking tenuous now, but any thoughts would be appreciated.
Guess it might be for pipes, but its huge!

If nothing else it'll make a great rack for small jabby things.

Atlantia · 21st November 2010, 07:47 PM

Showing the holes and size comparison with sabre.

David · 21st November 2010, 08:35 PM

You have presented a good mystery here Gene. I've been googling like crazy over this.

One thing that comes up for St. Laurence, Northfield in 1909 is that they started their first scouting troop there. I don't see how that connects to "Ake ake kiakaha" though. There do seem to be some Rugby connections to the time and motto, but nor to Northfield. The best clue might be found if we can ID the logo in the center that looks like the initials C.H.H. It looks so familiar for some reason, but i can't place it.

David · 21st November 2010, 08:36 PM

I do hope that when you mentioned "hacking" this piece you were not suggesting cutting into it to adapt it as a knife rack. That would seem a shame to me.

Gavin Nugent · 21st November 2010, 08:43 PM

An interesting bit of history.

Another factor to consider is the representation of the snakes, rather unusual I thought since they have no snakes in NZ, so under what influence did these appear.

Gav

Atlantia · 21st November 2010, 09:24 PM

David,

Thanks mate, appreciate your help. It's a strange thing isn't it?
As for hacking it.... I'm thinking twice, it's really growing on me as-is!
I think it'll make a cracking shelf for odds 'n' bobs

Very heavily waxed, lovely patination.
The monogram is odd, C.H with two extra bars that don't seem to be connected. You think it's another H?

Gav,

Good point about the snakes!
If we could definately ID the use it might help. The holes are just big enough for your little finger.
Must be pipes, surely?
If it wasn't that nobody considered smoking unhealthy back then I'd think that the snakes represented temptation and the motto was to stay strong while abstaining?

Here's a better pic:

Thanks guys

kahnjar1 · 22nd November 2010, 04:13 AM

http://www.googlejersey.com/nhl-jers...ed-p-8275.html
Check out this link. The Logo is the same and the CH 1909 is also involved. Can't see why Kia Kaha is there unless they just like the Maori phrase! Kia Kaha is not just used by the military, but used in all sorts of "rev up" phrases. but certainly St Laurence fits with Montreal!
Further to the above link, a search of the "Canadiens" on Google shows they were founded in 1909, so.....the plot thickens. The Kia Kaha bit is NOT the motto of this team. I personally do not think that this item has UK connections, but rather Canadian.

Atlantia · 22nd November 2010, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

http://www.googlejersey.com/nhl-jers...ed-p-8275.html
Check out this link. The Logo is the same and the CH 1909 is also involved. Can't see why Kia Kaha is there unless they just like the Maori phrase! Kia Kaha is not just used by the military, but used in all sorts of "rev up" phrases. but certainly St Laurence fits with Montreal!
Further to the above link, a search of the "Canadiens" on Google shows they were founded in 1909, so.....the plot thickens. The Kia Kaha bit is NOT the motto of this team. I personally do not think that this item has UK connections, but rather Canadian.

HI Stu,

Thanks for coming in on this one.
The plot does thicken indeed!
It seems to be quite a popular motto. I must admit, I'm more than consused now

Any thoughts as to use?

Cheers
Gene

Atlantia · 22nd November 2010, 11:35 AM

I will just add one thing. The date of 1909 seems to fit with the construction of the piece. The carving, patina, deterioration of the pins, type of pins used etc. I'm absolutely sure that this isn't a later made piece with a comemorative earlier date.

David · 22nd November 2010, 12:26 PM

Interesting kahnjar, but i don't quite see the connection of the snakes with hockey and i'm not sure we can connect Northfield to Montreal though we can find an English place for St. Laurence, Northfield.
I think the English at that time are far more likely to have some NZ connection than Canada and in the early 1900s the New Zealand Rugby Team "The Blacks" made frequent tours throughout Great Britian playing against British teams. I believe that they may have used this phrase as a rally cry.

Billman · 22nd November 2010, 12:33 PM

Looks like a pipe rack - failry common in the Edwardian period, when men smoked pipes rather than cigarettes...

It would be a shame to alter it...

Atlantia · 22nd November 2010, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billman

Looks like a pipe rack - failry common in the Edwardian period, when men smoked pipes rather than cigarettes...

It would be a shame to alter it...

Hi Bill,

I agree it seems like it has to be a pipe rack, but its so damn big! Almost like it was made to sit outside a buildings entrance for visitors to leave their pipes in. But it's the combination of the moto, the snakes , the size etc making it a bit of a puzzler to me. Is it: be strong and avoid the temptation (snakes) of smoking?

David · 22nd November 2010, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billman

Looks like a pipe rack - failry common in the Edwardian period, when men smoked pipes rather than cigarettes...

It would be a shame to alter it...

Agreed Billman, i thought it was a pipe rack as well....and also that it would be a shame to alter it both from a historical and monetary sensibility.

....but it is still full of mysteries....

Atlantia · 22nd November 2010, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Agreed Billman, i thought it was a pipe rack as well....and also that it would be a shame to alter it both from a historical and monetary sensibility.

....but it is still full of mysteries....

Agreed. My plan now is careful restoration and it'll go on show with small objects on the lower large shelf. I love it to be honest!

Edit: would have made a nice dagger rack though

VANDOO · 22nd November 2010, 06:57 PM

I ONLY KNOW WHAT LITTLE I HAVE SEEN IN MOVIES OR ON TV ABOUT ENGLISH GENTLEMANS CLUBS. PERHAPS A EXCLUSIVE GENTLEMANS CLUB OF THE PERIOD WOULD HAVE HAD SUCH A PIPE RACK AT THE CLUB FOR THE MEMBERS TO LEAVE THEIR PIPES AT THE CLUB. THE STEWARD COULD BRING THEM THEIR PIPE AND SOME TOBACCO WHEN REQUESTED. THEY COULD SMOKE AT THE CLUB EVEN IF THEIR WIFE DISSAPROVED OF THE HABIT IN THE HOME. THE ITEM IS CERTIANLY OF THE HIGH QUALITY WORKMANSHIP REQUIRED BY THE WEALTHY WHO WOULD HAVE BEEN MEMBERS OF SUCH CLUBS. JUST A THOUGHT

kahnjar1 · 22nd November 2010, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

HI Stu,

Thanks for coming in on this one.
The plot does thicken indeed!
It seems to be quite a popular motto. I must admit, I'm more than consused now

Any thoughts as to use?

Cheers
Gene

Hi Gene,
The coincidences of date and badge I feel would be well worth following up. Perhaps an email to the Canadiens Head Office with a pic would be worthwhile. I would guess that you could get the email from their website.

Other than that I don't have anything else to suggest, but agree that it would be a shame to alter the item until it's origins are established.
A futher comment on the Ake Ake Kia Kaha thing. Yes the Maori Battalion song is exactly that, BUT the phrase is also used widely in other ways also.
Regards Stu

Rick · 22nd November 2010, 08:42 PM

I'm not so sure this is a pipe rack .

Grandfather was a pipe smoker; his racks held the pipe stem up .
This rack looks like it would hold the pipe's stem pointing down .

I would also think that the moisture, tars etc. would run down the stem and provide a very untasty smoke .

I see no depressions under each hole to hold the pipe's bowl .

kahnjar1 · 23rd November 2010, 12:09 AM

I also don't believe it is a pipe rack as it is far too big. As an aside, what is the diam. of those holes?

David · 23rd November 2010, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I see no depressions under each hole to hold the pipe's bowl .

You're right Rick, i hadn't noticed the lack of depressions on the shelf side.

Rick · 23rd November 2010, 01:54 AM

Possibly a Club tally board or some such ?

Pegs, wins, losses, different colors ...try to imagine .

How many holes be there Gene ?

David · 23rd November 2010, 02:06 AM

Snakes aside, it seems the only St. Laurence/Northfield connection that i am finding is that St. Laurence is a church in Northfield, Birmingham.
Could this item have some church function?

Ferguson · 23rd November 2010, 02:32 AM

To further confuse things, the first HMS Maori was launched in 1909. Their ships motto was the same phrase. Have no idea about the St. Laurence Northfield connection, if there is one.

Steve

David · 23rd November 2010, 02:42 AM

Yeah Steve, i was working the naval angle for a while too. The HMS New Zealand was also also ordered built in 1909, but the Northfield connection remains elusive here as Northfield is undoubtably landlocked.

Atlantia · 23rd November 2010, 09:48 AM

Hi Gentlemen.
Thanks for continuing the detective work. There are 9 holes in all.
I'm just repairing a small amount of damage. It's a great example of recycling. The timbers are much older, with filled peg holes, and many signs of use.

colin henshaw · 26th November 2010, 11:33 AM

Hi

I can't really add anything about this unusual piece. The incorporation of snake motifs is a bit intriguing...snakes seem to have excited human imagination throughout history, in mythology and folklore. Had a look at the excellent British Museum exhibition "The Book of the Dead" recently, and snakes featured prominently in Ancient Egyptian culture, both as negative and positive forces....

Billman · 2nd December 2010, 12:45 PM

Pipe racks come in two types - bowl down, sitting on a small shelf, and bowl up with the stems sitting through holes...

21st November 2010, 07:43 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	NZ Maori connection treen rack mystery Here's a bit of a puzzle! Saw this Beautiful treen rack carved from earlier oak reused timbers, with the famous line from the marching song of the 28th Maori Battalion: 'Ake ake kiakaha': "For ever and ever be strong". Thought this meant a military connection, but having bought it and looked into it a little further 'St Laurence Northfield' seems to be in the midlands/England. 1909 seems too early and the motto more widely used anyway! Its a massive rack and I did think I could modify it to house daggers, but I'm thinking I should ID it before I consider hacking it at all. I know the military link is looking tenuous now, but any thoughts would be appreciated. Guess it might be for pipes, but its huge! If nothing else it'll make a great rack for small jabby things. Attached Images Last edited by Atlantia; 21st November 2010 at 07:54 PM.

21st November 2010, 07:47 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Showing the holes and size comparison with sabre. Attached Images

21st November 2010, 08:43 PM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Interesting An interesting bit of history. Another factor to consider is the representation of the snakes, rather unusual I thought since they have no snakes in NZ, so under what influence did these appear. Gav

21st November 2010, 09:24 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	David, Thanks mate, appreciate your help. It's a strange thing isn't it? As for hacking it.... I'm thinking twice, it's really growing on me as-is! I think it'll make a cracking shelf for odds 'n' bobs Very heavily waxed, lovely patination. The monogram is odd, C.H with two extra bars that don't seem to be connected. You think it's another H? Gav, Good point about the snakes! If we could definately ID the use it might help. The holes are just big enough for your little finger. Must be pipes, surely? If it wasn't that nobody considered smoking unhealthy back then I'd think that the snakes represented temptation and the motto was to stay strong while abstaining? Here's a better pic: Thanks guys Attached Images Last edited by Atlantia; 21st November 2010 at 09:39 PM.

22nd November 2010, 04:13 AM	#7
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	http://www.googlejersey.com/nhl-jers...ed-p-8275.html Check out this link. The Logo is the same and the CH 1909 is also involved. Can't see why Kia Kaha is there unless they just like the Maori phrase! Kia Kaha is not just used by the military, but used in all sorts of "rev up" phrases. but certainly St Laurence fits with Montreal! Further to the above link, a search of the "Canadiens" on Google shows they were founded in 1909, so.....the plot thickens. The Kia Kaha bit is NOT the motto of this team. I personally do not think that this item has UK connections, but rather Canadian. Last edited by kahnjar1; 22nd November 2010 at 05:57 AM.

21st November 2010, 08:35 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	You have presented a good mystery here Gene. I've been googling like crazy over this. One thing that comes up for St. Laurence, Northfield in 1909 is that they started their first scouting troop there. I don't see how that connects to "Ake ake kiakaha" though. There do seem to be some Rugby connections to the time and motto, but nor to Northfield. The best clue might be found if we can ID the logo in the center that looks like the initials C.H.H. It looks so familiar for some reason, but i can't place it.

21st November 2010, 08:36 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	I do hope that when you mentioned "hacking" this piece you were not suggesting cutting into it to adapt it as a knife rack. That would seem a shame to me.

22nd November 2010, 11:35 AM	#9
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I will just add one thing. The date of 1909 seems to fit with the construction of the piece. The carving, patina, deterioration of the pins, type of pins used etc. I'm absolutely sure that this isn't a later made piece with a comemorative earlier date.

22nd November 2010, 12:26 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Interesting kahnjar, but i don't quite see the connection of the snakes with hockey and i'm not sure we can connect Northfield to Montreal though we can find an English place for St. Laurence, Northfield. I think the English at that time are far more likely to have some NZ connection than Canada and in the early 1900s the New Zealand Rugby Team "The Blacks" made frequent tours throughout Great Britian playing against British teams. I believe that they may have used this phrase as a rally cry.

22nd November 2010, 12:33 PM	#11
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Looks like a pipe rack - failry common in the Edwardian period, when men smoked pipes rather than cigarettes... It would be a shame to alter it...

22nd November 2010, 06:57 PM	#15
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I ONLY KNOW WHAT LITTLE I HAVE SEEN IN MOVIES OR ON TV ABOUT ENGLISH GENTLEMANS CLUBS. PERHAPS A EXCLUSIVE GENTLEMANS CLUB OF THE PERIOD WOULD HAVE HAD SUCH A PIPE RACK AT THE CLUB FOR THE MEMBERS TO LEAVE THEIR PIPES AT THE CLUB. THE STEWARD COULD BRING THEM THEIR PIPE AND SOME TOBACCO WHEN REQUESTED. THEY COULD SMOKE AT THE CLUB EVEN IF THEIR WIFE DISSAPROVED OF THE HABIT IN THE HOME. THE ITEM IS CERTIANLY OF THE HIGH QUALITY WORKMANSHIP REQUIRED BY THE WEALTHY WHO WOULD HAVE BEEN MEMBERS OF SUCH CLUBS. JUST A THOUGHT

22nd November 2010, 08:42 PM	#17
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Observation I'm not so sure this is a pipe rack . Grandfather was a pipe smoker; his racks held the pipe stem up . This rack looks like it would hold the pipe's stem pointing down . I would also think that the moisture, tars etc. would run down the stem and provide a very untasty smoke . I see no depressions under each hole to hold the pipe's bowl .

23rd November 2010, 12:09 AM	#18
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	I also don't believe it is a pipe rack as it is far too big. As an aside, what is the diam. of those holes?

23rd November 2010, 01:54 AM	#20
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Possibly a Club tally board or some such ? Pegs, wins, losses, different colors ...try to imagine . How many holes be there Gene ?

23rd November 2010, 02:06 AM	#21
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Snakes aside, it seems the only St. Laurence/Northfield connection that i am finding is that St. Laurence is a church in Northfield, Birmingham. Could this item have some church function? Attached Images Last edited by David; 23rd November 2010 at 02:33 AM.

23rd November 2010, 02:32 AM	#22
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	To further confuse things, the first HMS Maori was launched in 1909. Their ships motto was the same phrase. Have no idea about the St. Laurence Northfield connection, if there is one. Steve

23rd November 2010, 02:42 AM	#23
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Yeah Steve, i was working the naval angle for a while too. The HMS New Zealand was also also ordered built in 1909, but the Northfield connection remains elusive here as Northfield is undoubtably landlocked.

23rd November 2010, 09:48 AM	#24
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Gentlemen. Thanks for continuing the detective work. There are 9 holes in all. I'm just repairing a small amount of damage. It's a great example of recycling. The timbers are much older, with filled peg holes, and many signs of use.

26th November 2010, 11:33 AM	#25
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi I can't really add anything about this unusual piece. The incorporation of snake motifs is a bit intriguing...snakes seem to have excited human imagination throughout history, in mythology and folklore. Had a look at the excellent British Museum exhibition "The Book of the Dead" recently, and snakes featured prominently in Ancient Egyptian culture, both as negative and positive forces....

2nd December 2010, 12:45 PM	#26
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Pipe racks come in two types - bowl down, sitting on a small shelf, and bowl up with the stems sitting through holes...