Another Dayak Sword

Dinggat · 26th October 2010, 08:57 PM

Hallo guys!

Had the opportunity to see the private collection of an Indonesian whom I met this summer in the province of Kalimantan Barat. Among the edged weapons was one Dayak parang, and I just wanted to ask if someone maybe wants to comment. Real? Old? What Dayak-subgroup? Unfortunately, these two are the only photos as I was kinda rushed through that room in true Indonesian style

Thus I don't know what the blade looks like.

Comments on the other visible swords are also welcome, of course.

greetings and thanks

VANDOO · 26th October 2010, 09:28 PM

THE DAYAK SWORD IS NOT AN OLD ONE BUT WAS MADE IN BORNEO. I SAW SOME LIKE IT IN SHOPS IN KUCHING AS WELL AS FOR SALE ON EBAY 2001 THRU PRESENT. THE MORE ATTRACTIVE ONES HAD NICELY CARVED BONE SECTIONS ATTACHED TO THE SCABBARD NOT JUST CARVED WOOD. WHERE IN BORNEO THEY WERE CARVED I DON'T KNOW.
THE TOP SWORD LOOKS TO BE FROM ONE OF THE INDONESIAN ISLANDS PERHAPS TORAJA OR TIMOR. THE NEXT ONE IS AN ACTUAL MILITARY SWORD. THE LAST ONE I CAN'T TELL MUCH ABOUT BUT DOSEN'T LOOK OLD.
HERE ARE SOME PICTURES OF AN EXAMPLE CLOSE TO WHAT YOU SHOW. THIS ONE WAS DESCRIBED AS MADE OF CARVED BONE HARD TO TELL FROM PICTURES BUT I HAVE SEEN THEM IN WOOD AND BONE. THE BONE EXAMPLES COULD LIKELY BE THE MOST EXPENSIVE SWORD IN THE SMALL SHOP UNLESS THEY DEAL IN REAL ANTIQUES. MOST SHOPS I SAW IN BORNEO HAD FEW OR NO GOOD OLD TOP QUALITY MANDAU FOR SALE. THERE WERE LOTS OF SWORDS FROM NEW TO PERHAPS 50 T0 80 YEARS OLD BUT FEW 100 YEAR OLD ONES AVAILABLE. THERE IS QUITE A VARIETY OF ITEMS TO BE SEEN AND A TRIP TO BORNEO IS FUN AND VERY INTERESTING.
THOSE WITH MONEY BUT LITTLE KNOWLEGE WILL OFTEN BUY THE MOST EXPENSIVE AND ATTRACTIVE/ EYE CATCHING ITEM. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT AND HIS FRIENDS WILL BE IMPRESSED. I AM FAR FROM AN EXPERT OR CONNISOUR OF DAYAK WEAPONS AND HAVE BOUGHT THINGS THAT THOSE WITH TRUE KNOWLEGE WOULD TURN THEIR NOSE UP AT, BUT THATS WHAT KEEPS IT INTERESTING AND FUN. IT ALSO MAKES A MARKET FOR OBSOLETE ITEMS SO SMALL SHOPS WILL CONTINUE TO MAKE AND MARKET THEM.

Sajen · 26th October 2010, 11:10 PM

Any chance to post bigger pictures?

Dinggat · 26th October 2010, 11:29 PM

VANDOO, thanks for the answer. It surprises me a bit that this is not an original piece, as the owner was a little wealthier than the average Indonesian and seemed quite proud of his collection. But I trust your expertise no doubt. Maybe he was tricked by the seller himself.

Sajen, you get full resolution if you "click to zoom" on the imageshack website and then save the photo on your harddrive. If you already knew that and ask for even higher resolution, unfortunately no, this is already full resolution. My camera only has 6 Megapixels, which is far below average for 2010 standards, but well, it's all I got.

Amuk Murugul · 26th October 2010, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinggat

.....
Comments on the other visible swords are also welcome, of course.

..

Hullo everybody

The second sword from the top looks like what the Soenda call: Gobang Kalewang. It looks locally-made. If the blade is hand-forged, then it could be an original from circa 1902, probably made in Soerabaja or Soemedang(which, around 1850-1930 was the local "Solingen").

The last sword looks like a Middle-eastern type popular in Indonesia and referred to by the Soenda as: Saif (Arabic for sword). It may have been made locally (I'd have to see the blade).

Best,

Rick · 26th October 2010, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinggat

VANDOO, thanks for the answer. It surprises me a bit that this is not an original piece, as the owner was a little wealthier than the average Indonesian and seemed quite proud of his collection. But I trust your expertise no doubt. Maybe he was tricked by the seller himself.

Sajen, you get full resolution if you "click to zoom" on the imageshack website and then save the photo on your harddrive. If you already knew that and ask for even higher resolution, unfortunately no, this is already full resolution. My camera only has 6 Megapixels, which is far below average for 2010 standards, but well, it's all I got.

You can also upload your photos directly to our database for posterity and continuation of the thread's integrity in case they get removed from your hosting site in the future .
We prefer that if possible .

Any questions; feel free to ask .

Dinggat · 27th October 2010, 10:42 AM

I tried to, but the upload tool says that my pictures exceed the maximum size limit. As I think the bigger the better for seeing details I decided to go with an external hoster instead of resizing.

Thanks at all for those informations. Most welcome

David · 27th October 2010, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinggat

I tried to, but the upload tool says that my pictures exceed the maximum size limit. As I think the bigger the better for seeing details I decided to go with an external hoster instead of resizing.

Thanks at all for those informations. Most welcome

This is a misunderstanding about resizing images. File size is not just dependent upon the dimensions of the image, but the resolution size (ppi). Computer screens can't read ppi above 80, so change your resolution to 80ppi and the dimensions to something like 7x10. That will be plenty large for viewing, but still have a file size small enough for the site.
The reason it is not a good idea to use another server for your images is that maybe a year from now it won't be there any more and this thread will no longer have your example to refer too.

Sajen · 27th October 2010, 07:08 PM

Hello Dingat,

now I understand!

The top sword is from the Timor Islands ( Alor, Pantar, Roti, Savu, Timor and Wetar) and named in the book from Zonneveld type a.

Regards,

Detlef

Dinggat · 29th October 2010, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

This is a misunderstanding about resizing images. File size is not just dependent upon the dimensions of the image, but the resolution size (ppi). Computer screens can't read ppi above 80, so change your resolution to 80ppi and the dimensions to something like 7x10. That will be plenty large for viewing, but still have a file size small enough for the site.
The reason it is not a good idea to use another server for your images is that maybe a year from now it won't be there any more and this thread will no longer have your example to refer too.

Alright, didn't know that. Yet, there's not only a byte maximum, but also a resolution maximum of 1280x1280.

But your reasoning about this thread staying useful in the future is of course right, so here they are again, as attachments

---------

Can the parang, despite not being an antique one, be attributed to a certain Dayak subgroup? And what shape do you think the blade has or might have? Same as the one VANDOO posted?

Sajen, thank you. I'll look up that Timorese sword in the Zonneveld book. Fortunately the library where I work has it in their inventory, and I often browse through it when I have nothing to do

Luckily enough, no one ever borrowed it...

asomotif · 29th October 2010, 10:40 PM

Quote:

The second sword from the top looks like what the Soenda call: Gobang Kalewang. It looks locally-made. If the blade is hand-forged, then it could be an original from circa 1902, probably made in Soerabaja or Soemedang(which, around 1850-1930 was the local "Solingen").

Hello Amuk,
The second from the top is a copy of the 1911 model "Sabel Marechaussee"
So 1902 would be a little premature as a date of manufacture.

Hela Dinngat,
As for the mandau and Timor sword. tourist examples. Can't make it any better. At least I get the impression that they where not offered to you for sale. That is a plus.
Check the search function on "mandau" and check some of the old threads.

Good luck !
Best regards,
Willem

Dinggat · 30th October 2010, 12:22 AM

Yes, thank you. Mandau is the way to go.

They weren't offered to me for sale, they were in his possession as his private collection, and he just showed them to me for fun.
Sabel Marechaussee was a good keyword. Found lots of pages via Google, among them several threads on Vikingsword

Klewang being the Indonesian name for it. Can we be sure it is a copy, judging solely from the two photos?

Edit/ Hehe, just noted somebody has written "DATU" (Malay honorific title) on the Mandau's hilt with a marker pen for whatever reason...

Amuk Murugul · 30th October 2010, 04:40 AM

Hullo everybody

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hello Amuk,
The second from the top is a copy of the 1911 model "Sabel Marechaussee"
So 1902 would be a little premature as a date of manufacture.

..I prefer to look at it the other way... and say that the above was the field-developed model on which the M1911 was based. These were produced by local smiths and tested in the field before being accepted for European manufacture. Successive modifications in the field addressed the short-comings of the Kalewang in action. Production in Europe merely "dotted the i's and crossed the t's" of the design. Also, there was often a lag time between the use of a newly-developed weapon 'tested' in the field and its official designation and its becoming 'regulation issue'.

Best,

Amuk Murugul · 30th October 2010, 11:29 PM

Hullo Everybody

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinggat

.....
Sabel Marechaussee was a good keyword. Found lots of pages via Google, among them several threads on Vikingsword

Klewang being the Indonesian name for it. Can we be sure it is a copy, judging solely from the two photos?.....

I've tried to get a better look at the pictures.

First of all, my apologies for a typo. The year of manufacture I was referring to in my initial reply was circa 1909, NOT circa 1902.

WRT the photos.... too many uncertainties...
For instance, from the angle:
The tang screw appears smaller than normal... but is it so?
The scale rivets appear to have 'X' marks... is it so? If so, are they punch marks or Phillips counter-sunk screw-heads?
I can't detect any 'square corners' where there should be on the cut-outs of the guard...is it so?

BTW... Klewang is not the specific Indonesian word for it, as klewang is a generic name used for a variety of edged weapons in the Archipelago. Only the Dutch use it specifically for this weapon.The specific Indonesian name for it is Pedang Marsose.

Best,

asomotif · 31st October 2010, 12:51 PM

Quote:

..I prefer to look at it the other way... and say that the above was the field-developed model on which the M1911 was based. These were produced by local smiths and tested in the field before being accepted for European manufacture.

Although these hand made pieces are difficult to put a date on, this can be an early production. But still, the handguard and blade are based on the dutch dutch Cavalrieswords Model 1846 and 1875.
And the specific bladetip can even be recognised in the Model 1813 cavalry sword.

Quote:

I can't detect any 'square corners' where there should be on the cut-outs of the guard...is it so?

The square corners are IMO typical of the dutch factory produced Hembrug examples. (see picture)

Always interesting how some first "stamp" sized pictures bring up te reactions.
BTW There is a nice book on the militairy Klewang by Mr. J.P.. Puype.

Best regards,
Willem

Amuk Murugul · 1st November 2010, 12:17 AM

Hullo everybody,

I have no wish to enter into debate on this, so I'll simply end this matter (as far as I'm concerned) with my opinion on a couple of points:

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

..... still, the handguard and blade are based on the dutch dutch Cavalrieswords Model 1846 and 1875......

Here we differ Willem. I believe the Kalewang handguard to be a direct copy of the Dutch Cavalry Officer's Sabre M1876 minus the irritating protrusion. I acknowledge that the hilts of the M1846 & M1875 were used on earlier locally-produced blades (you, may call them Proto-Klewangs), but I think that these hilts had 'wire' guards, not sheet-metal with cut-outs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

.....The square corners are IMO typical of the dutch factory produced Hembrug examples.....

Here we may differ again.... While 'square corners' may be typical of Hembrug, I believe both Lilley-Ames and Vince also produced guards with 'square corners' for the 1941 KNIL contract.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

.....a nice book on the militairy Klewang by Mr. J.P.. Puype.....

As you seem fond of referring to Mr. Puype, may I suggest that you perhaps 're-visit' him and/or his book.
Should you then feel that you may have incontrovertible evidence that I am in error, please let me know and I will be only too glad to make any appropriate adjustment.

Otherwise..... we will have to agree to disagree..

Best,

asomotif · 2nd November 2010, 08:02 AM

Quote:

I believe the Kalewang handguard to be a direct copy of the Dutch Cavalry Officer's Sabre M1876 minus the irritating protrusion.

I stand corrected. the most direct source is indeed the M1876 handguard.

Quote:

I believe both Lilley-Ames and Vince also produced guards with 'square corners' for the 1941 KNIL contract.

Will check.

Dear Amuk,
I was not looking for a debate. This would be useless as the klewang has so many variants. Puypes book is based on the collection of the Legermuseum in Delft. Other sources might well bring to light other facts. Even specialists would disagree on certain things.
My main issue was to point out that although locally developped, the design of the Klewang is based on European blades.

Best regards,
Willem

26th October 2010, 08:57 PM	#1
Dinggat Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 29	Another Dayak Sword Hallo guys! Had the opportunity to see the private collection of an Indonesian whom I met this summer in the province of Kalimantan Barat. Among the edged weapons was one Dayak parang, and I just wanted to ask if someone maybe wants to comment. Real? Old? What Dayak-subgroup? Unfortunately, these two are the only photos as I was kinda rushed through that room in true Indonesian style Thus I don't know what the blade looks like. Comments on the other visible swords are also welcome, of course. greetings and thanks

26th October 2010, 09:28 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE DAYAK SWORD IS NOT AN OLD ONE BUT WAS MADE IN BORNEO. I SAW SOME LIKE IT IN SHOPS IN KUCHING AS WELL AS FOR SALE ON EBAY 2001 THRU PRESENT. THE MORE ATTRACTIVE ONES HAD NICELY CARVED BONE SECTIONS ATTACHED TO THE SCABBARD NOT JUST CARVED WOOD. WHERE IN BORNEO THEY WERE CARVED I DON'T KNOW. THE TOP SWORD LOOKS TO BE FROM ONE OF THE INDONESIAN ISLANDS PERHAPS TORAJA OR TIMOR. THE NEXT ONE IS AN ACTUAL MILITARY SWORD. THE LAST ONE I CAN'T TELL MUCH ABOUT BUT DOSEN'T LOOK OLD. HERE ARE SOME PICTURES OF AN EXAMPLE CLOSE TO WHAT YOU SHOW. THIS ONE WAS DESCRIBED AS MADE OF CARVED BONE HARD TO TELL FROM PICTURES BUT I HAVE SEEN THEM IN WOOD AND BONE. THE BONE EXAMPLES COULD LIKELY BE THE MOST EXPENSIVE SWORD IN THE SMALL SHOP UNLESS THEY DEAL IN REAL ANTIQUES. MOST SHOPS I SAW IN BORNEO HAD FEW OR NO GOOD OLD TOP QUALITY MANDAU FOR SALE. THERE WERE LOTS OF SWORDS FROM NEW TO PERHAPS 50 T0 80 YEARS OLD BUT FEW 100 YEAR OLD ONES AVAILABLE. THERE IS QUITE A VARIETY OF ITEMS TO BE SEEN AND A TRIP TO BORNEO IS FUN AND VERY INTERESTING. THOSE WITH MONEY BUT LITTLE KNOWLEGE WILL OFTEN BUY THE MOST EXPENSIVE AND ATTRACTIVE/ EYE CATCHING ITEM. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT AND HIS FRIENDS WILL BE IMPRESSED. I AM FAR FROM AN EXPERT OR CONNISOUR OF DAYAK WEAPONS AND HAVE BOUGHT THINGS THAT THOSE WITH TRUE KNOWLEGE WOULD TURN THEIR NOSE UP AT, BUT THATS WHAT KEEPS IT INTERESTING AND FUN. IT ALSO MAKES A MARKET FOR OBSOLETE ITEMS SO SMALL SHOPS WILL CONTINUE TO MAKE AND MARKET THEM. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 27th October 2010 at 03:56 PM.

26th October 2010, 11:10 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Any chance to post bigger pictures?

26th October 2010, 11:29 PM	#4
Dinggat Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 29	VANDOO, thanks for the answer. It surprises me a bit that this is not an original piece, as the owner was a little wealthier than the average Indonesian and seemed quite proud of his collection. But I trust your expertise no doubt. Maybe he was tricked by the seller himself. Sajen, you get full resolution if you "click to zoom" on the imageshack website and then save the photo on your harddrive. If you already knew that and ask for even higher resolution, unfortunately no, this is already full resolution. My camera only has 6 Megapixels, which is far below average for 2010 standards, but well, it's all I got.

27th October 2010, 10:42 AM	#7
Dinggat Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 29	I tried to, but the upload tool says that my pictures exceed the maximum size limit. As I think the bigger the better for seeing details I decided to go with an external hoster instead of resizing. Thanks at all for those informations. Most welcome

27th October 2010, 07:08 PM	#9
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Hello Dingat, now I understand! The top sword is from the Timor Islands ( Alor, Pantar, Roti, Savu, Timor and Wetar) and named in the book from Zonneveld type a. Regards, Detlef

30th October 2010, 12:22 AM	#12
Dinggat Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 29	Yes, thank you. Mandau is the way to go. They weren't offered to me for sale, they were in his possession as his private collection, and he just showed them to me for fun. Sabel Marechaussee was a good keyword. Found lots of pages via Google, among them several threads on Vikingsword Klewang being the Indonesian name for it. Can we be sure it is a copy, judging solely from the two photos? Edit/ Hehe, just noted somebody has written "DATU" (Malay honorific title) on the Mandau's hilt with a marker pen for whatever reason...