Ivory Hilt Trumbash Knife

Lew · 25th October 2010, 03:54 PM

A recent addition probably circa 1920-30? Comments welcome. From what I have read these knives were originally weapons of war that evolved into status symbols.

baatar108 · 25th October 2010, 04:20 PM

This is a very nice one. The characteristic Mangbetu sculptural ironwork in these is very conservative-the form is quite standardized. Ivory hilts are often seen. Much rarer are these same knives with solid copper blades.
The Mangbetu are a large group and were formerly quite powerful and had large,sophisticated courts. They had major influence and dominance over neighboring peoples and conducted substantial trade as well.Early European accounts are numerous and excellent sources for descriptions of Mangbetu culture. The entire region of the Congo was densely populated with a huge number of distinct cultures. The tribal arsenal is probably the most complex in Africa with a bewildering variety of uniquely shaped weapons. Many of the knife and sword types are of such unwieldy forms that they must have been intended as much for intimidation as actual warfare.
If we note from European sources that these trombash knives/scepters were seen only in the hands of powerful chieftains, it gives us an idea of how large a population the Mangbetu would have been. There are numerous old and legitimate examples of these knives on the market, so we can see the tribal hierarchy must have been widespread and wielded considerable power.

Ron Anderson · 25th October 2010, 11:09 PM

I am envious.

The knives and swords of the Congo were what got me into collecting ethnographic edged weapons some 25 years ago. I've never seen one of these with an ivory handle.

VANDOO · 26th October 2010, 03:23 AM

I HAVE ALWAYS FOUND THESE FACINATING. SO I WILL INCLUDE SOME PICTURES OF A FEW MORE FOR REFRENCE.

THE PHOTOGRAPH WAS TITLED PRINCE ZANDE.

baatar108 · 26th October 2010, 04:52 AM

Beaute Fatale: Armes d'Afrique Centrale
Bruxelles,1992
ISBN 2-87193-172-0
probably expensive as hell, but thank god for Interlibrary Loans!

Luc LEFEBVRE · 27th October 2010, 10:22 PM

You can find good examples in my book.

Lew · 27th October 2010, 10:48 PM

Luc

Was I correct on the age?

Luc LEFEBVRE · 28th October 2010, 10:48 PM

About 1930, yes. Like this one.

Lew · 30th October 2010, 06:46 AM

Luc

You are a good teacher

Freddy · 30th October 2010, 08:53 AM

Nice piece, Lew.

Luc, could it be that the ones with a wooden handle are older models ? For example, like these ones :

Luc LEFEBVRE · 30th October 2010, 09:50 AM

"Luc, could it be that the ones with a wooden handle are older models ?"

Not systematically, but your knives are from the beginning ot XXth.
This one with ivory handle is 1900 or before.

Billman · 9th November 2010, 05:39 PM

These knives are usually regarded as ceremonial or currency, despite their close kinship with working sickles or billhooks. Most appear to be made mid 19th to mid 20th century, and many hundreds, probably thousands, have been made.

Later 20th century ones, made for the tourists, are made from sheet steel, approx 16SWG (1/16" or 1.6mm approx) thick. However earlier ones are forged and show the most skilled craftsmanship....

What I find intriuging is that the tribe at its height consisted of only 40,000 people, having moved from the Sudan in the middle of the 18th century (ref: http://www.zyama.com/mangbetu/index.htm), living in some 5 main villages (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangbetu_people) - say 50% were children and 50% of the adults females, and only say 10% of men of a status worthy of such a ceremonial item - maybe a requirement for 1000 knives - yet it is probable many more knives were produced than needed by the tribes for ceremonial use....

Were they thus ever used as tools??? Have only the 'new' or relatively unused ones survived as collectors' items??? If a symbol of wealth, or currency, would the tribes have parted with them so easily - or did their smiths make a surplus for trade with the belgian colonists????

However, the french Wikipedia site states the Mangbetu were part of a larger ethnic group, totalling over 1.3 million (ref: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangbetu_(peuple)) - so this may explain the apparent surplus of these wonderful knives... Maybe someone on the forum who has greater knowledge than me can answer my query???

Lew · 9th November 2010, 09:16 PM

I think the later fancy ones like mine were sold to wealthy farmers at least that is what I was told.

25th October 2010, 03:54 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Ivory Hilt Trumbash Knife A recent addition probably circa 1920-30? Comments welcome. From what I have read these knives were originally weapons of war that evolved into status symbols. Attached Images

25th October 2010, 04:20 PM	#2
baatar108 Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: New Mexico-Santa Fe Posts: 9	Mangbetu knives This is a very nice one. The characteristic Mangbetu sculptural ironwork in these is very conservative-the form is quite standardized. Ivory hilts are often seen. Much rarer are these same knives with solid copper blades. The Mangbetu are a large group and were formerly quite powerful and had large,sophisticated courts. They had major influence and dominance over neighboring peoples and conducted substantial trade as well.Early European accounts are numerous and excellent sources for descriptions of Mangbetu culture. The entire region of the Congo was densely populated with a huge number of distinct cultures. The tribal arsenal is probably the most complex in Africa with a bewildering variety of uniquely shaped weapons. Many of the knife and sword types are of such unwieldy forms that they must have been intended as much for intimidation as actual warfare. If we note from European sources that these trombash knives/scepters were seen only in the hands of powerful chieftains, it gives us an idea of how large a population the Mangbetu would have been. There are numerous old and legitimate examples of these knives on the market, so we can see the tribal hierarchy must have been widespread and wielded considerable power.

26th October 2010, 03:23 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAVE ALWAYS FOUND THESE FACINATING. SO I WILL INCLUDE SOME PICTURES OF A FEW MORE FOR REFRENCE. THE PHOTOGRAPH WAS TITLED PRINCE ZANDE. Attached Images

26th October 2010, 04:52 AM	#5
baatar108 Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: New Mexico-Santa Fe Posts: 9	best reference on Central African weapons Beaute Fatale: Armes d'Afrique Centrale Bruxelles,1992 ISBN 2-87193-172-0 probably expensive as hell, but thank god for Interlibrary Loans!

27th October 2010, 10:22 PM	#6
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 472	You can find good examples in my book. Attached Images

25th October 2010, 11:09 PM	#3
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	I am envious. The knives and swords of the Congo were what got me into collecting ethnographic edged weapons some 25 years ago. I've never seen one of these with an ivory handle.

27th October 2010, 10:48 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Luc Was I correct on the age?

28th October 2010, 10:48 PM	#8
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 472	About 1930, yes. Like this one. Attached Images

30th October 2010, 06:46 AM	#9
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Luc You are a good teacher

30th October 2010, 08:53 AM	#10
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Nice piece, Lew. Luc, could it be that the ones with a wooden handle are older models ? For example, like these ones :

30th October 2010, 09:50 AM	#11
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 472	"Luc, could it be that the ones with a wooden handle are older models ?" Not systematically, but your knives are from the beginning ot XXth. This one with ivory handle is 1900 or before. Attached Images

9th November 2010, 05:39 PM	#12
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	These knives are usually regarded as ceremonial or currency, despite their close kinship with working sickles or billhooks. Most appear to be made mid 19th to mid 20th century, and many hundreds, probably thousands, have been made. Later 20th century ones, made for the tourists, are made from sheet steel, approx 16SWG (1/16" or 1.6mm approx) thick. However earlier ones are forged and show the most skilled craftsmanship.... What I find intriuging is that the tribe at its height consisted of only 40,000 people, having moved from the Sudan in the middle of the 18th century (ref: http://www.zyama.com/mangbetu/index.htm), living in some 5 main villages (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangbetu_people) - say 50% were children and 50% of the adults females, and only say 10% of men of a status worthy of such a ceremonial item - maybe a requirement for 1000 knives - yet it is probable many more knives were produced than needed by the tribes for ceremonial use.... Were they thus ever used as tools??? Have only the 'new' or relatively unused ones survived as collectors' items??? If a symbol of wealth, or currency, would the tribes have parted with them so easily - or did their smiths make a surplus for trade with the belgian colonists???? However, the french Wikipedia site states the Mangbetu were part of a larger ethnic group, totalling over 1.3 million (ref: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangbetu_(peuple)) - so this may explain the apparent surplus of these wonderful knives... Maybe someone on the forum who has greater knowledge than me can answer my query???

9th November 2010, 09:16 PM	#13
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I think the later fancy ones like mine were sold to wealthy farmers at least that is what I was told.