Ethnographic Leather Cannon with photos.!!!

[spiral]

Hi Folks,

I came across these beuties in the Katmando National museam & though some of you guys might be interested.

I have never heard of such things before, But cannons are not my field.

Captured from the Tibetans in the 1792 war.

Solid rolled leather!

Spiral

[Rick]

I would suppose they could fire bags of one inch stones fairly effectively against massed troop formations .

Single projectiles though ... YIKES !

I wonder if they were wetted before use .



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/first guy that quotes Phil Rizzuto gets ten demerits .

[Berkley]

Fascinating. The one on the left with thick walls looks like it could be used with some degree of safety, assuming fairly weak powder. The thin-walled one looks like a demo piece for the original meaning of "hoist by one's own petard"! All muzzle-loading cannons are supposed to be swabbed out between rounds with a wet sponge to extinguish sparks, which is undoubtedly a good idea with these.

[Mark]

I guess if you are desperate enough, you will try any thing. I seem to remember a story of a town under seige (in Hungary?), and the townsfolk spent the night making a cannon out of a log, and cannon balls out of stone. It actually shot a few times, then exploded and killed everyone in the area.

[Hal Siegel]

Pretty nifty.

I forwarded this forum link onto a mailing list I'm on for pre-17th century cannons and gunnery, and learned that leather cannons were invented in the early 1600's in Zurich, and were used in the English Civil War.

"The presence of sympathetic foreign mercenaries in the service of
Gustavus Adolphus is well documented. The military genius of this
great General whose practices altered and reshaped military tactics
for centuries is also well known. One such innovation that caused
great alarm throughout the countries of Europe at its debut was his
new secret weapon-the leather cannon. The evolution of this weapon
of mass destruction finds it's early beginnings at Zurich where
the
Kings' Austrian born Colonel Melchior Warmprandt went to learn of
the new invention. He brought the idea back to Sweden and developed
it into the efficient anti-personnel weapon it became during that
European struggle. Scottish mercenaries were prominent in
Gustavus'
service and one prominent Captain of Infantry; Robert Scott was
among those who submitted a prototype weapon along with Ludvig Ripp,
a Captain of Artillerie in 1628 at the trials held at the naval
station of Skeppsholmen. One contemporary report in English credited
Scott with the invention of the marvelous leather Cannon! Facts
reveal a different story, but Scott did bring his own version of
this weapon to Scotland to be constructed and used in number with
good effect during the English Civil Wars.

This lightweight 3-pound cannon (Regimentstück) was a brilliant
tactical success. Taken apart and carted in wagons it was carried to
and assembled or rolled out to the front line to first receive the
Cavalry Charge. Using the first self contained linen cartridge ever
designed, 18 .80 caliber balls were hurled with deadly effect at
trooper then infantry alike. So devastating was the use of this
secret weapon that some exaggerated claims (up to 18 shots a
minute!) of its rapid fire heralded its announcement in the foreign
press. Its self-contained linen cartridge made at a munitions
factory was a singular innovation since these cartridges freed the
crew from the complicated loading process with powder and shot."

info found at the website of an ECW reenactment group,
Free Artillerie Company, Army of the Marquis of Montrose

These folks have reconstructed (and fired!) their own leather cannon.

It's pretty impressive to find leather cannon in use in Tibet over 150 years later. The cannon pictured above look very European in design, they most likely diffused eastwards instead of being developed locally.

[spiral]

Thanks Hal, interesting input!

I wouldnt even know what traditional Tibetan cannon looked like.

cheers,
Spiral

[Rather]

It seems that leather canons were widely used by the Swedish Army during the war 1618 – 1648.
A Biography of Gustav Adolf mentions the following (rough translation by me)

“Instead of the common heavy cannons, where 16, 20 or even 30 horses were necessary for transport, he (Gustav Adolf) used light artillery, the so called leather cannon, which among other advantages had a high firing speed. Whereas Tilly never managed to make use of more than 30 canons, Gustav Adolf made at Breitenfeld* use of about 100, later even of more. These light cannons were assigned to cavalry as well as to infantry and increased the combat strength of these formations considerably.”

*Breitenfeld, a small village in Germany, near Leipzig. 1631 there was a battle between Tilly (40.000 soldiers) against Gustav Adolf (47.000 soldiers). It was the first battle, where Tilly was defeated and he lost 26 cannons, 12.000 men and his whole baggage. The German Protestantism was saved.



The German Historic Museum in Berlin www.dhm.de owns 2 cannons from Sweden, described as follows (sorry, could not get hold of a photo)

1)
1 ½ pounder Leather Cannon
dating: between 1620 and 1650
country of origin: Sweden
dimensions: total lengths: 202 cm, bore 6
material/technic: Copper, iron, hemp, leather

2)
1 pounder Leather Cannon
dating: between 1620 and 1650
dimensions: total lengths: 196 cm, bore 5,4
material/technic: Copper, iron, hemp, leather

This might give at least an impression about the dimensions…

[spiral]

Thats cool Rather, Thanks.

Ok as a few of you like cannons & stuff , heres a meaty looking mortar from Katmando museam as well!

Any one know anything about this strange beast, I ve never seen a carriage like that, not that that means anything!

Id guess it still qualifies as ethnographic?

Spiral

[Rick]

That looks like a copy of a European Mortar .
Strange there seem to be no wheels ; maybe a fortification piece , but usually these were used against fortifications .
That took a very large ball or bomb !!

Here's a link to a very interesting Indian Mortar .

http://www.firepower.org.uk/gallerie...ry_gallery.cfm

[spiral]

Ilike the Tiger mortar Rick! Cheers!

I think the Nepali mortar had little wheels underneth it within the mount!

I think the balls/bombs were at least a foot in diameter!

Spiral