Templar Sword?

[Matchlock]

My expert friend on early edged weapons defined this sword as 'ca. 1300' on the grounds that its rounded pommel is the most recent dating criterion; if it were not for the pommel it could well be second half 13th c.

More soon.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Cesare,

I must say your posts start becoming a true enrichment of those forum members interested in Middle Ages weapons!

Please show us more museum items, also early firearms or detached locks as I requested yesterday.

Best,
Michael

[Atlantia]

Beautiful sword. I have one question though, why specifically Templar and not simply a later Crusades knightly sword? I always think of Christian knights adorned with 'holy' symbols etc.
I know the 'maltese cross', knights of St John, Templar connection etc, but was this symbol synonymous with the Templars only at that time?

[Matchlock]

Hi Gene,

The very same questions jumped to my mind as well. I hope we'll learn more about them soon.

Best,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Cesare, I would like to join the others in welcoming you here, and really look forward to the weapons you are sharing with us here, especially with the example at hand to begin with. Excellent photos, and superb description of a remarkable weapon!!

I would join with Gene and Michael in the caveat in applying the term 'Templar' as yet, as this was often collectively used in describing any of the number of monastic military orders of that time, and the cross was widely used on swords as a protective device. It seems that earlier it was most typically used on the scabbard, but of course may have been used on either.
The most distinguishing factors at this point are obviously the provenance (if this is among the excavated weapons you have noted) and as Michael has pointed out, the shape of the pommel. No doubt we will be consulting the Oakeshott references to clarify the classification.

The treble transverse lines are of course of key interest, and may lend more clues to classification.

At this point, a knightly sword c.1300 with possible monastic order association, and detail pending.

All the best,
Jim

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I would join with Gene and Michael in the caveat in applying the term 'Templar' as yet, as this was often collectively used in describing any of the number of monastic military orders of that time, and the cross was widely used on swords as a protective device.

While i agree that we cannot assign this a Templar sword based upon the sign of the cross i must disagree that the term Templar can be applied to any number of monastic militaries orders. They were a very specific group.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

While i agree that we cannot assign this a Templar sword based upon the sign of the cross i must disagree that the term Templar can be applied to any number of monastic militaries orders. They were a very specific group.

Ahah! Someone is reading my posts!!! Thank you David.
Actually I should have worded that better, and perhaps noted that colloquially the Knights Templar appelation has in many cases been misconstrued in referring to other monastic military orders .
The Knights Templar were indeed a specific group, and existed contemporarily with the Knights Hospitaller (also known as the Order of St. John, later as the Knights of Rhodes and the Knights of Malta). While the Templars and Hospitallers worked together in Jerusalem and environs building fortifications and carrying out thier presumed duties, it seems that they were at times in conflict with each other as well as with another order, the Teutonic Knights.

Certainly in contemporary times there was probably little misunderstanding in identifying these groups, however in modern references and discussions it does seem that some interpolation of terms has occurred, usually inadvertantly and some references have used the collective 'Knights of Christ' term to more accurately attend to these variant groups as a whole. I must admit that much of the literature on Freemasonry and the history of the Knights Templar does present challenges in following some of the complexity in these groups.
Again, thank you for the most valid correction.

Norman, thank you for the Oakeshott categorization, which seems to fit nicely with the provenance which Cesare has noted, with a Templar presence in the village of Legnago near the end of the 13th century. Since the Knights Templars were dissolved officially in 1329, might we presume that the monastic order here were indeed still of Templar origin.

Returning to the sword at hand, again the Christian cross had long been used as a talismanic device on swords and scabbards as early as the 6th-7th centuries, and later of course. In many markings and invocations the Greek cross, similar to that on the pommel here is seen on earlier Frankish blades, and as noted, the markings on this blade III .... III with indistinguishable image in the center, are seen on 10th century INGELRII blades ("The Viking Sword" p.61).

While this blade is clearly later, and the Ingelrii blades lasted possibly as late as the 12th century, could this marking have been carried forward in marking this blade, as well as the traditional Greek cross protective decoration on the pommel?
It is known that some swords of the Crusades did indeed have the 'Cross of St. George' on the pommel in this manner, and it seems that 'MARIA' has been seen on the pommel of another, as well as probably other similar apotropaic or talismanic markings on pommels contemporary to this sword.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... why specifically Templar and not simply a later Crusades knightly sword? ...

The style of the cross, maybe, Gene !
Weren't Templar crosses different than Christian ones?

[mrwizard]

The Teutonic Knights also used a very similar cross
at that time (black instead of red) AND they had with the "Deutschordensballei An der Etsch und im Gebirge" a province nearby http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_der_Etsch

Best Regards

Thilo

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by mrwizard

The Teutonic Knights also used a very similar cross
at that time (black instead of red) AND they had with the "Deutschordensballei An der Etsch und im Gebirge" a province nearby http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_der_Etsch

Best Regards

Thilo

Exactly, Thilo,

The Deutschordenskreuz usually does not show the widened and split ends though, and it is higher than wider.

Best,
Michael from Bavaria

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... The Deutschordenskreuz usually does not show the widened and split ends though, and it is higher than wider...

And the cross used by Christians would often have the crucifix shape; but these thing of crosses is not so linear, right?

[mrwizard]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Exactly, Thilo,

The Deutschordenskreuz usually does not show the widened and split ends though, and it is higher than wider.

Best,
Michael from Bavaria

Yes, but they are not that different and maybe
there were variations.
Below is a picture of Hermann von Salza, grandmaster of the order 1210-1239. Of course this picture is not contemporay but from the 17th century.
At the 13th century the "official" cross looked somewhat like the second picture taken from the codex manesse.

[Matchlock]

I'm pretty much on your side, 'Nando,

The internet does not seem to be quite helpful, either. Illustrated there is a great variety of so-called Templars' crosses, some of which I would call Maltese and others just Medieval cosses pattées ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar

This seemingly is gaining suspension!

Best,
Michael