Interesting projectile

[katana]

Recently finished on eBay, a 'catapult dart', suggested to be medievel to 1700's in date. Weighs nearly 2lbs and it is suggested that the hole in the tail would have rope/ribbon attached , to act as a stabilising tail.

The seller states provenance as...

"....from the Dencil Price collection of Medieval Weapons and Armor. Price amassed his fine collection while in Europe from 1944-1948. Found in southern Belgium....."

Has anyone seen one of these before ?

I would imagine, if genuine, that a catapult would be loaded with several of these and fired at 'massed' enemy lines.

All comments gratefully received, thank you

Regards David


.

[fearn]

1700s and catapault don't normally go together in my vocabulary, but whatever, I'm open to being wrong.

I'll be interested to hear what others think, but I find myself thinking in terms of sounding lines or similar. Tie this to the end of a line, let it drop and embed, and drag back whatever it's attached to.

Best,

F

[Atlantia]

Sorry, just don't see it.
Can't say I'm sure what this was, but I can't see it being fired from anything, or being an effective projectile if it was!
What sort of a groove would soething that shape fit in?
How would it be 'pushed'?
It's got a weight in the middle!
Looks like it was meant to be hung from something.

LOL, like Fearn though, I'm open to being proved wrong on this one!
What did you think David?

[M ELEY]

Hmmm...seems like I saw something like this associated with whaling, like the end of a harpoon? Sorry, my sleep-addled brain can't remember it for sure-


Here we go(after a related search of whaling and harpoon guns)-

www.busaccagallery.com/catalog.php?catid=62

http://www.americanhistory.si.edu/on...ition/3_7.html

www.whalecraft.net/Shoulder_Gun_Irons.html

www.whalecraft.net/Swivel%20Guns.html

[katana]

Thanks for the replies .....as I thought, not likely catapult ammo. I agree that it probably was 'hung', I think it may be a 'heavy duty' plumb line ....the spear end providing an accurate pointer.

Fearn's is a good suggestion, but I think using this as a 'sounding' device, runs the risk of it being snagged/embedded on the bottom, or giving false readings if the 'bottom' was soft silt and the item embedded itself deeply.

Thanks Mark for the links.The whaling connection sounds interesting....and if it is right, the buyer probably did well....Whaling implements seem to command high prices.

Still, it could even be something else

Kind Regards David

[fernando]

Hi David,
Peculiar thing
Hardly a plumb bob, or any kind of plummet; both rear and 'ball' would not have an irregular shape ... even the arrow head. Those things are perfectly concentric; may spin freely without compromise; isn't that so?
Also hardly a sinker; too many irregular forms again .
An harpoon head would be more likely ... although not definitely that.
Let people carry on digging .

[fearn]

Hi All,

I wasn't thinking exactly of a plumb bob, but of something that you'd want to embed in something else. Thanks to M. Eley, it might be something like thispatent whale hoist. These are obviously not the same thing, but if you string a line in the fin, it's going to drop point first, and the weight means that it's going to hit something reasonably hard. So, I guess the question is, can you use it to retrieve something off the bottom?

I do like all those whaling tools. It's a good thing they don't show up here, or we'd all get pretty confused.

Best,

F

[katana]

Hi 'Nando ,
I found a reference to a medieval plumb weight which was made from lead in the shape of a fish, with a hole for the cord, in the middle of the fish's tail. You could argue that the 'projectile' has a 'fishy' shape. I'm still thinking it could be a plumb weight used for larger buildings especially if the seller's date range is accurate

Perhaps a ballista / harpoon head ....the hole could be for a rivet to attach to a shaft or in the case of a harpoon head a retrieval line.
It does seem very well made for an item that is 'fired' once, but with a harpoon you would expect to be able to retrieve it .....but the lack of bad corrosion seems to suggest it didn't see a lot of salt water

All the best
David

PS Fearn,
I agree the 'whale hoist' has interesting similarities but does not have 'guide rings' to direct the dart via another rope. I think the problem with using this to retrieve items from the seabed are that first of all you need to be able to see it, water currents could easily push a 2lbs weight 'off course' and the item would have to be 'spearable'

Looking again at the 'dart'....the 'ring' which gives most of the weight has four flattened faces....as this would require more time/effort to produce, it suggests that these facets aid the function ...perhaps to prevent 'rolling'

[fernando]

Originally Posted by fearn

... I do like all those whaling tools. It's a good thing they don't show up here, or we'd all get pretty confused...

Yes ... as we might as well keep sensitive enough to avoid widening the scope of the topic by entering too deep into certain parts of the whale scenario... if you people know what i mean .

[Matchlock]

Hi David,

My only guess: not more that one hundred years old.

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Hi again David,
I don't think that the relation between section lengths and volumes complies with a heavy duty capture device; too short for penetration, assuming the ball is a stopper.
Besides, it has no profile to be thrown from a gun, as Gene already advanced.
I am still skeptical about the pending weight version; i don't know why, just don't see it like that.
Why not a static implement? the hole to fix it somewhere?
But tell me, do you still think its age dates back to XVII century? that old indeed?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi David,

My only guess: not more that one hundred years old.

Best,
Michael

Ah Michl, you came first, while i was writing my longer post!

[katana]

Hi Michael and 'Nando,
the patina does suggest that it is not as ancient as the seller suggests....Victorian ? or perhaps stored in 'ideal conditions'.

How about the pointer from a simple (but large) inclinometer ? or mounted on a ship's beam, to freely pivot (nail through the hole) to measure the pitch or roll of a ship ?? possibly, but extremely unlikely.

The 'tail' section had a diamond cross section, I think if this was to be fixed statically I would expect one or both sides to be flat. For the same reason I think a harpoon head is also unlikely, a flat profile would allow more accurate fitting to a shaft. (+ the fact, that large harpoons were nearly all marked with the ship, or owners initials, or the maker etc)

Some sort of decorative counter weight or pendulum ??

Regards David

[broadaxe]

I have two things on mind with this peculiar item:
1. A pointer of a wall mounted instrument, like cart scales.
2. Railing or concrete pillar top...

1700's catapult ? duhhh...

[fearn]

Perhaps the gnomon (pointer) on some sort of ornate sundial? One thing that bothers me about this theory is that hole in the fin. What is it there for? and it's quite short, which makes me twitchy too.

I didn't post that earlier, because I didn't want to clutter the whaling implement story.

The thing I don't like about the whale sticker interpretation is that toggle harpoons are old. If it's supposed to take the strain of raising a whale carcass, you'd expect either toggle barbs or something similar that would stick in the body.

Best,

F

P.S.: I know what it is! Stonehenge and other standing stone circles are just really old silicon-based astronomical computers. Maybe this is just the cursor for Stonehenge's graphic interface.

[Atlantia]

So now someone has to wait until the buyer leaves feedback then message him and ask if he knows what it is!

[Berkley]

I think broadaxe has it - a finial for a fence railing or gate. The flattened tail goes into a socket cast in the top of the railing and orients the blade/tip parallel to the axis; a through bolt perpendicular to the railing holds the finial in place. The use of separate individual finials cuts down the weight of the fence panel or gate for transportation and assembly.

[katana]

Hi Berkley,
I can see that is a possibillity, one I considered before posting but, several design features don't seem to add up.

If this object was to be mounted vertically (point up) having one fixing hole would not be very secure. The weight would try and rotate around the fixed point. More secure would be a minimum of two fixing points. The same scenario if mounted horizontally, less important if the object was to be mounted 'point down'.

One solution, to only have one fixing hole and making it secure, would be a shaped recess which prevented the 'rotational' forces, using the one hole to keep the 'object' in place.
The tail has a flatterned diamond shaped cross- section and an arc in the end section. To accommodate this securely it would be fitted into a slot with the same diamond cross-section, not an easy thing to manufacture, and unnecessary complication. As I mentioned before, I think, there is an unlikelihood of this ever having a shaft, as it would be better and much more advantageous to have the tail flat to fit a simple slot.

This is certainly becoming a "mystery item"

Link to auction...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HUGE-RARE-MEDI...item5195221a99

Kind Regards David

[Berkley]

FWIW, this type of finial is known in the trade as a "spear".