Pre-contact Maori whalebone club

David · 12th September 2010, 05:20 PM

Well Fearn, even if the circle (and these are not concentric circles as everyone keeps referring to them as, but a circle with a center point) were done with a european influenced tool i am not sure that we need to go completely in the opposite direction and discount this as an authentic item. Perhaps it isn't pre-contact, but are there reasons you doubt it's authenticity all together?
I still think that the circles look a bit too clean, deep and regular not to have been cut with metal, but i would love to see other examples of similar clubs with "stone age" provenance that have circles cut as well and uniformly as this item does.

Ron Anderson · 12th September 2010, 05:48 PM

Fearn

You need to brush up on your manners, mate. And your logic too.

You simply fail to convince. That's why you're being disregarded.

Not because we're all desperate to ensure the theory on the NW American origins of this piece is correct against the evidence.

I for one am quite happy to look at other explanations, but none are forthcoming. And frankly, you haven't convinced me of your expertise on NW American art to have me suddenly abandon reason and declare you are right.

Your theory that it was carved by a Polynesian sailor whiling his time away on a whale boat is hardly compelling, frankly. It really was 0.00000000 cents worth of contribution, as you yourself acknowledge.

VANDOO · 12th September 2010, 07:15 PM

WITHOUT PERSONALLY HANDELING THE ITEM ITS REALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE ACCURATE OBSERVATIONS FOR ANY OF US. IS IT POSSIBLE IT IS A MORE RECENT REPLICA AFTER CONTACT AND AQUIRING STEEL TOOLS THE ANSWER WITHOUT FURTHER PROOF IS YES. IS IT POSSIBLE IT IS AN AUTHENTIC PRE CONTACT EXAMPLE ITS THE SAME WITHOUT FURTHER PROOF YES. IT CAN'T BE BOTH BUT UNTIL MORE INFORMATION BECOMES AVAILABLE THERE IS NOTHING TO GET EXCITED OR ANGRY ABOUT

I WOULD SUGGEST YOU LOOK ABOUT FOR AN ARTEFACT SHOW IN YOUR AREA OR CONTACT A MUSEUM. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO MAKE A LIVING AUTHENDICATING ARTEFCTS I KNOW SEVERAL. THEY DO THIS THRU MANY YEARS OF EXPERIENCE AND CAN TELL MUCH LOOKING THRU A MICROSCOPE AND WITH OTHER SIMPLE NON DESTRUCTIVE TESTS. THEY USUALLY AUTHENDICATE STONE TOOLS, POTS AND SUCH BUT SHOULD EASILY BE ABLE TO TELL YOU IF STEEL TOOLS WERE USED. TO GET PAPER AUTHENDICATING A STONE POINT USUALLY RUNS AROUND $25.00 AND WILL MORE THAN PAY FOR THE TEST IF IT PASSES AND YOU PLAN TO TRY AND SELL THE POINT. THAT COULD ALSO GIVE A DEFINITE ANSWER AS TO HOW AND LIKELY WHEN IT WAS MADE. GOOD LUCK

Tim Simmons · 12th September 2010, 07:45 PM

Even post contact traditional weapons would have been used, as it would have taken many years for trade to make them outdated, and so what if the the circles were made by stone tools or a trade pair of steel dividers

.

Gavin Nugent · 12th September 2010, 09:31 PM

Easy Ron,

Funny thing them manners, thus far 3 emails and 2 PMs have been ignored. Everyone here is helping this info and choices that I have seen thus far...

Gav

Ron Anderson · 13th September 2010, 12:56 AM

Gav, I think that comment's a wee bit oversensitive. I have thanked everyone profusely for their involvement collectively more than once. You were included in that. I haven't responded to your email because I don't know what GES means.

As for assertions that I'm angry or excited, nothing could be further from the truth.

It's time to end this thread. Vandoo is correct. There's only so much you can tell through photographs. And the arguments have become polemical.

But it has been very illuminating.

So thank you AGAIN everyone. It's been good. We've all grown stronger and wiser.

If I discover anything more about this club, I'll let you know.

Regards
Ron

David · 13th September 2010, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Even post contact traditional weapons would have been used, as it would have taken many years for trade to make them outdated, and so what if the the circles were made by stone tools or a trade pair of steel dividers

.

Thank you Tim. This is precisely what i've been saying . It seems that people are either saying it's pre-contact or it's a replica. I see no reason why it couldn't be post-contact and just as authentic in nature.
Hell, i would find it an interesting and valuable artifact even if it was carved by some salior aboard a and old whaler, though i am quite awate of the increased interest in NW Indian culture.

And everyone should chill on the taking offense front.

Ron Anderson · 13th September 2010, 03:13 AM

I'd like to just point out one thing.

I am completely ignorant of NW American culture. There has never been much awareness from my side of the desirability of such artefacts. I come from the other side of the world. I am a South African-born New Zealander of British/Swedish heritage who lives in Australia. I have never been to America. I have spent most of my life in the southern hemisphere.

I was of the opinion this was Maori or, at least, Polynesian. But then I'm no expert in that area either.

So the fact that I've embraced the idea that this is from the NW coast of America has been based exclusively on the evidence and indications presented here.

I have never had a clue as to the monetary worth of such artefacts and was actually of the impression that Maori artefacts are worth much more. Which may or may not still be the case, for all I know.

So that's hardly been a factor at all in my estimation. The things I have noted are:

1) the form of the club is a paddle club remarkable similar to those shown from NW America.
2) The figure of the club is strikingly similar to some shown in black and white line drawings from the year dot.
3) The circles in my club also mirror circles in line drawings kindly provided by Vandoo.

These have been immensely useful bits of information, so thanks to all, including Fearn.

Sorry if my response to you Fearn was pointed. We are all entitled to opinions, or course. But I'm afraid that is all that is possible here with the level of information on offer.

My feeling is this is a good club. And as I have said earlier, I acknowledge that currently the exact age and background are still uncertain.

Regards
Ron

M ELEY · 13th September 2010, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

WITHOUT PERSONALLY HANDELING THE ITEM ITS REALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE ACCURATE OBSERVATIONS FOR ANY OF US. IS IT POSSIBLE IT IS A MORE RECENT REPLICA AFTER CONTACT AND AQUIRING STEEL TOOLS THE ANSWER WITHOUT FURTHER PROOF IS YES. IS IT POSSIBLE IT IS AN AUTHENTIC PRE CONTACT EXAMPLE ITS THE SAME WITHOUT FURTHER PROOF YES. IT CAN'T BE BOTH BUT UNTIL MORE INFORMATION BECOMES AVAILABLE THERE IS NOTHING TO GET EXCITED OR ANGRY ABOUT

I WOULD SUGGEST YOU LOOK ABOUT FOR AN ARTEFACT SHOW IN YOUR AREA OR CONTACT A MUSEUM. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO MAKE A LIVING AUTHENDICATING ARTEFCTS I KNOW SEVERAL. THEY DO THIS THRU MANY YEARS OF EXPERIENCE AND CAN TELL MUCH LOOKING THRU A MICROSCOPE AND WITH OTHER SIMPLE NON DESTRUCTIVE TESTS. THEY USUALLY AUTHENDICATE STONE TOOLS, POTS AND SUCH BUT SHOULD EASILY BE ABLE TO TELL YOU IF STEEL TOOLS WERE USED. TO GET PAPER AUTHENDICATING A STONE POINT USUALLY RUNS AROUND $25.00 AND WILL MORE THAN PAY FOR THE TEST IF IT PASSES AND YOU PLAN TO TRY AND SELL THE POINT. THAT COULD ALSO GIVE A DEFINITE ANSWER AS TO HOW AND LIKELY WHEN IT WAS MADE. GOOD LUCK

Amen, Barry, on taking it to the experts. I've sent off pics and even an artifact once to the Smithsonian for a more definitive opinion. Being that they had handled hundreds of similar artifacts, I fent comfortable with their assessment even if it was something I didn't want to hear. Please do keep us posted, Ron. This artifact, despite causing a bit of a stir, is amazing and worth following up on.

fearn · 14th September 2010, 12:26 AM

I'm all for chilling, and I do apologize if my comments annoyed people. My vote is post-contact but old, not that it matters.

A technical point about manufacturing the circles: if it's made by stone friction (and I'm including the sand and equisetum trick), you're almost certainly going to see a round bottom on the circle grooves, and I suspect it will be uneven. Get a good, bright light and a good magnifying glass, and examine the bottoms of the grooves.

If it's cut by steel or iron, the lines tend to be much sharper, because sharp metal cuts much more cleanly. If you see squared, even bottoms on the circles, they're almost certainly cut by metal.

Also, take a good ruler (micrometer if you have one) to the circles and measure their diameters. If they're all the same size (say within <1 mm) that argues again for a metal tool such as a drill bit. The reason is that something like an equisetum stem will wear down, and they'll probably have to use a bunch of stems. This will lead to different-sized circles.

Obviously, if someone scribed this with a divider, it will be harder to see, because the lines will be worked with dull steel and a variable diameter tool. However, steel generally cuts more cleanly than stone or bone tools, so clean cuts are evidence of steel tools.

Finally, for typing, DNA, and carbon-dating: you can take it to a natural history museum, and probably get a guess as to which whale it came from (along the lines of sperm whale, one of the roquals, or a dolphin). They'll do that by comparing bone specimens. It probably came from either a rib or lower jaw. As others noted, DNA genotyping would be difficult, because there's human DNA and who knows what else on the surface. They would have to drill deep inside the club to get the sample. Ditto with carbon dating, because there's modern carbon all over the surface. Only you can answer whether it's worth those tests.

Best,

F

Ron Anderson · 14th September 2010, 04:43 AM

Thanks for that, Fearn.

That's useful. I'll take a good look.

From what I can see, the surface of the circle is of varying depth. But I need to double check that.

kronckew · 14th September 2010, 11:48 AM

did not the indians of the pacific northwest have hardened copper tools?

12th September 2010, 05:20 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,120	Well Fearn, even if the circle (and these are not concentric circles as everyone keeps referring to them as, but a circle with a center point) were done with a european influenced tool i am not sure that we need to go completely in the opposite direction and discount this as an authentic item. Perhaps it isn't pre-contact, but are there reasons you doubt it's authenticity all together? I still think that the circles look a bit too clean, deep and regular not to have been cut with metal, but i would love to see other examples of similar clubs with "stone age" provenance that have circles cut as well and uniformly as this item does.

12th September 2010, 05:48 PM	#2
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Fearn You need to brush up on your manners, mate. And your logic too. You simply fail to convince. That's why you're being disregarded. Not because we're all desperate to ensure the theory on the NW American origins of this piece is correct against the evidence. I for one am quite happy to look at other explanations, but none are forthcoming. And frankly, you haven't convinced me of your expertise on NW American art to have me suddenly abandon reason and declare you are right. Your theory that it was carved by a Polynesian sailor whiling his time away on a whale boat is hardly compelling, frankly. It really was 0.00000000 cents worth of contribution, as you yourself acknowledge.

12th September 2010, 07:15 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WITHOUT PERSONALLY HANDELING THE ITEM ITS REALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE ACCURATE OBSERVATIONS FOR ANY OF US. IS IT POSSIBLE IT IS A MORE RECENT REPLICA AFTER CONTACT AND AQUIRING STEEL TOOLS THE ANSWER WITHOUT FURTHER PROOF IS YES. IS IT POSSIBLE IT IS AN AUTHENTIC PRE CONTACT EXAMPLE ITS THE SAME WITHOUT FURTHER PROOF YES. IT CAN'T BE BOTH BUT UNTIL MORE INFORMATION BECOMES AVAILABLE THERE IS NOTHING TO GET EXCITED OR ANGRY ABOUT I WOULD SUGGEST YOU LOOK ABOUT FOR AN ARTEFACT SHOW IN YOUR AREA OR CONTACT A MUSEUM. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO MAKE A LIVING AUTHENDICATING ARTEFCTS I KNOW SEVERAL. THEY DO THIS THRU MANY YEARS OF EXPERIENCE AND CAN TELL MUCH LOOKING THRU A MICROSCOPE AND WITH OTHER SIMPLE NON DESTRUCTIVE TESTS. THEY USUALLY AUTHENDICATE STONE TOOLS, POTS AND SUCH BUT SHOULD EASILY BE ABLE TO TELL YOU IF STEEL TOOLS WERE USED. TO GET PAPER AUTHENDICATING A STONE POINT USUALLY RUNS AROUND $25.00 AND WILL MORE THAN PAY FOR THE TEST IF IT PASSES AND YOU PLAN TO TRY AND SELL THE POINT. THAT COULD ALSO GIVE A DEFINITE ANSWER AS TO HOW AND LIKELY WHEN IT WAS MADE. GOOD LUCK

12th September 2010, 07:45 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Even post contact traditional weapons would have been used, as it would have taken many years for trade to make them outdated, and so what if the the circles were made by stone tools or a trade pair of steel dividers .

12th September 2010, 09:31 PM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Easy Ron, Funny thing them manners, thus far 3 emails and 2 PMs have been ignored. Everyone here is helping this info and choices that I have seen thus far... Gav

13th September 2010, 12:56 AM	#6
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Gav, I think that comment's a wee bit oversensitive. I have thanked everyone profusely for their involvement collectively more than once. You were included in that. I haven't responded to your email because I don't know what GES means. As for assertions that I'm angry or excited, nothing could be further from the truth. It's time to end this thread. Vandoo is correct. There's only so much you can tell through photographs. And the arguments have become polemical. But it has been very illuminating. So thank you AGAIN everyone. It's been good. We've all grown stronger and wiser. If I discover anything more about this club, I'll let you know. Regards Ron

13th September 2010, 03:13 AM	#8
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	I'd like to just point out one thing. I am completely ignorant of NW American culture. There has never been much awareness from my side of the desirability of such artefacts. I come from the other side of the world. I am a South African-born New Zealander of British/Swedish heritage who lives in Australia. I have never been to America. I have spent most of my life in the southern hemisphere. I was of the opinion this was Maori or, at least, Polynesian. But then I'm no expert in that area either. So the fact that I've embraced the idea that this is from the NW coast of America has been based exclusively on the evidence and indications presented here. I have never had a clue as to the monetary worth of such artefacts and was actually of the impression that Maori artefacts are worth much more. Which may or may not still be the case, for all I know. So that's hardly been a factor at all in my estimation. The things I have noted are: 1) the form of the club is a paddle club remarkable similar to those shown from NW America. 2) The figure of the club is strikingly similar to some shown in black and white line drawings from the year dot. 3) The circles in my club also mirror circles in line drawings kindly provided by Vandoo. These have been immensely useful bits of information, so thanks to all, including Fearn. Sorry if my response to you Fearn was pointed. We are all entitled to opinions, or course. But I'm afraid that is all that is possible here with the level of information on offer. My feeling is this is a good club. And as I have said earlier, I acknowledge that currently the exact age and background are still uncertain. Regards Ron

14th September 2010, 12:26 AM	#10
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'm all for chilling, and I do apologize if my comments annoyed people. My vote is post-contact but old, not that it matters. A technical point about manufacturing the circles: if it's made by stone friction (and I'm including the sand and equisetum trick), you're almost certainly going to see a round bottom on the circle grooves, and I suspect it will be uneven. Get a good, bright light and a good magnifying glass, and examine the bottoms of the grooves. If it's cut by steel or iron, the lines tend to be much sharper, because sharp metal cuts much more cleanly. If you see squared, even bottoms on the circles, they're almost certainly cut by metal. Also, take a good ruler (micrometer if you have one) to the circles and measure their diameters. If they're all the same size (say within <1 mm) that argues again for a metal tool such as a drill bit. The reason is that something like an equisetum stem will wear down, and they'll probably have to use a bunch of stems. This will lead to different-sized circles. Obviously, if someone scribed this with a divider, it will be harder to see, because the lines will be worked with dull steel and a variable diameter tool. However, steel generally cuts more cleanly than stone or bone tools, so clean cuts are evidence of steel tools. Finally, for typing, DNA, and carbon-dating: you can take it to a natural history museum, and probably get a guess as to which whale it came from (along the lines of sperm whale, one of the roquals, or a dolphin). They'll do that by comparing bone specimens. It probably came from either a rib or lower jaw. As others noted, DNA genotyping would be difficult, because there's human DNA and who knows what else on the surface. They would have to drill deep inside the club to get the sample. Ditto with carbon dating, because there's modern carbon all over the surface. Only you can answer whether it's worth those tests. Best, F

14th September 2010, 04:43 AM	#11
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Thanks for that, Fearn. That's useful. I'll take a good look. From what I can see, the surface of the circle is of varying depth. But I need to double check that.

14th September 2010, 11:48 AM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	did not the indians of the pacific northwest have hardened copper tools?