19th century gothic dagger?

[Ron Anderson]

This is my new favourite dagger? What is it?

It is copper, silver plated.

I think it may be French (or English), Victoria era.

[Gavin Nugent]

Can't really tell without images Ron,

Gav
Brisbane

[Ron Anderson]

Sorry, I'm having difficulty uploading images. Here's a link to the photo.

http://militaryantiques.files.wordpr...8/rimg0002.jpg

[Ron Anderson]

Another link

http://militaryantiques.files.wordpr...8/rimg0003.jpg

[Ron Anderson]

And a rear view

http://militaryantiques.files.wordpr...8/rimg0004.jpg

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Ron,

Your first thoughts are my first thoughts. I think the blade and perhaps the design to the scabbard may tell more of the period than the rest of the design as the blade is one thing that seemsed to stay common to a time period. Though saying that someone here may well immeadiately identify the the 'eagle','Sphinx','Griffin' hilt?

Gav

[David]

Ron, you were probably having problems because these images were way too large to upload to our site. The ppi was at 72, but the file dimensions were like 24x35 inches. I resized them and gave them a tighter crop.
So why do you think this is 19th century?

[Battara]

Yeah European alright. Yes possibly French. May need to go to the European section.

[fernando]

Hi Ron,
Try and upload direct pictures and not web links.
We will move this thread to the European Armoury section, if you don't mind.

[Ron Anderson]

Hello everyone

Thanks for your comments. I'm in Australia so there is a time lag between us, which is why I'm only responding now.

David, thanks for fixing those pictures. I have a new camera and will need to work out how to created smaller files.

I think it's 19th century, partly because a knowledgeable friend pointed me in that direction. There is a definite age to the piece. It looks like a fantasy knife, but in fact is not your garden variety fantasy knife at all.

The odd thing is, I've seen this type of knife twice within the last year. The first time it was one of a large number of very high quality edged weapons on auction. I dismissed it as a fantasy knife (as did the auction house 'experts') but my friend identified it as something kind of special.

The very same knife appeared at an antique market where the dealer was selling it for next to nothing, believing it to be a modern fantasy knife. Foolishly I didn't buy it immediately and when I returned to buy it after drawing money it had been sold.

This particular knife I found at an arms fair. It was sold to me by a custom knife maker who found it in a junk shop. It is almost identical to the first knife I'd seen but in better condition.

The fact that I've seen two here in Sydney within the last year led me to believe it might be not all that uncommon. However, I suspect it is actually very uncommon and the fact that I've encountered it twice in a short time frame is just a bizarre coincidence.

I think it's French because it just has that look. I think there've been similar figural pieces displayed in past threads here.

The blade looks distinctly 19th century to me. I've seen similar blades on other ornate 19th century daggers. But there are no markings at all.

Anyway, it is really an interesting piece. I'm delighted to have found it.

I haven't ruled out the possibility that it belonged to some form of fraternal or secret society.

Would be very keen to here from anybody else who might have some insight into it.

Regards
Ron

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Battara

Yeah European alright. Yes possibly French.

good shoot might be a track ...
see under the label; "Dague romantique Viollet le Duc"

à +

Dom

[M ELEY]

Hmmm...well, I wouldn't say fantasy knife, but perhaps something more utilitarian, like a letter opener? I don't mean this insultingly, as there are collectors of such. The figure could be a griffon, but with that face, I was thinking 'gargoyle', which is also a popular French decoration. I wouldn't think it was too old,perhaps early 20th?? A well-decorated piece. My two cents...

[Ron Anderson]

Hi Mark

You could be right.

I've seen other figural daggers recently that are rather like letter openers, so I do know where you're coming from. Certainly, this would serve that purpose. But this is a proper dagger with a very nice blade. The knives I've seen which were like letter openers were smaller.

This is a full sized piece. It's 26cm long, with a blade of about 15.5cm.

Seems a bit excessive for a letter opener. However, I know some people who opener their champagne bottles with Scottish broadswords!

The custom knife maker I bought it from was pretty impressed with its manufacture as a knife. And I have to say, I do agree. It's a well made knife.

You may be right. It could be early 20th century. Hard to say. Later 19th century is also a possibility.

I don't think it's much later than that.

Thanks for your comments.

[Atlantia]

Hi Ron.

I have to say that my first thoughts are that it is very pretty, but last 40 years.
However, first impressions can indeed be way off the mark, and as you say, sometiimes it is the items dismissed by the 'experts' that turn out to be the 'sleeper' gems.
I have a couple of questions that may help discern origins a bit more.
How is the handle attached to the blade?
Is the blade stainless steel, I can't see any marks on it from oxidisation?
Is there any liner in the scabbard?

[Ron Anderson]

Hi

I don't think it's stainless steel. There is some light oxidation on the blade, some fluffy black stuff that hasn't shown up in the photo. I believe the scabbard has a wood lining, but can't really tell. However, I do know the other example I spoke about had a wood lining. I believe the copper is wrapped around this wood lining.

I think the handle is attached the same ways most old blades are attached. The tang goes right through the hilt. There seems to be a mark visible at the top of the knife - you can see the mark where the tang comes through on the gargoyle's head. This is the same sort of mark you'd see in a sword dating from the 19th century – for instance, the same sort of mark you'd see on a 19th British naval officer's sword (the lion head). However, it is subtle and hard to detect, but it's definitely there.

The handle appears to haven been cast in 2 pieces – a line runs through the profile of the hilt. However, is is not quite in the centre.

Regards
Ron

[Ron Anderson]

I can confirm there is a liner in the scabbard but it's not visible from the outside. There are two bits of wood - one on the front plate and one of the back, that help keep the blade snug when in the scabbard.

The scabbard itself is also copper and cast in two identical pieces - the back and front are the same, with the same design etc.

The seam on the scabbard is not all that strong. It would be easy to tear it apart, but then of course it is only copper.

[Ron Anderson]

It seems the mystery has been solved. It is a Dague Romantique. Thank you Dom.

It is a type of 19th century knife, very stylised, and often by prostitutes. A kind of prostitute knife with a fantasy twist.

Here's another one

http://www.clic-nature.fr/forum/topic2907.html

[Ron Anderson]

Here's another one

http://www.armesanciennes.fr/index.php?eID=tx_cms_showpic&file=uploads%2Ftx_tem plavoila%2Fa180-5w.jpg&bodyTag=%3CBODY%20bgColor%3D%22black%22%3E& wrap=%3CA%20href%3D%22javascript%3Aclose%28%29%3B% 22%3E%20|%20%3C%2FA%3E&md5=f43a07d122faca5303c05ff 670cda368


I'd say mine is a very good example. A+ indeed.

Thank you everyone for your assistance. I'm pretty convinced about this one. It is as I expected a 19th century piece. It may even be mid rather than late 19th century. It's almost certainly French, but there's a chance that it's English.

[Ron Anderson]

commercial link removed.

[David]

From what i can tell this category of "Dague Romantique" seems a bit vague, but i would say that your example seems to fit well within it. I would take the "carried by prostitutes" line with a grain of salt as so far i can only find that as a line from sellers to entice sale. Do you have an academic reference to this use. Here is a link to a similar style dagger (different figure and motif) that was claimed "satanic" in nature.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ack+notre+dame
Here are some examples of what i could find on the web also described as "Dague Romantique".

[Ron Anderson]

Hi David

Thanks for posting those pictures. The scabbards in particular mirror the style of my piece.

I think you're right – it is a rather vague category, probably created in hindsight. I doubt at the time anyone would have thought of these as "romantic daggers". They reflect the romanticism of that period, I think, and have been labelled that way to identify them broadly to collectors, and perhaps to separate them from later fantasy daggers.

I can only speculate that the reason they were carried by prostitutes is that they were quite pretty and quite dramatic. Mine is a bigger example, but the smaller ones were also obviously easy to conceal, so useful for that kind of work.

I believe the manufacturers of these knives found a ready market among prostitutes, but they were no doubt used more widely too. As Mark noted, probably as letter openers.

This is guesswork. I have no hard evidence of this.

It is interesting that they seem confined largely to France - in fact, to such a degree that collectors elsewhere don't even really know about them.

There are one or two English examples I know about. But the English always ended up imitating the French, didn't they?

[Jim McDougall]

This very intriguing looking dagger seems to me 'made in the 19th century style' of romantic theme or allegorical daggers of these times. The term 'romantic' derives from the Gothic themes and novels popular in the time, and one of the popular subjects in image was of course Notre Dame cathedral. The gargoyle figure corresponds to these representations of lurking evil which decorate parts of the cathedral, with these legendary creatures usually a dragonlike beast with batlike wings.

Other daggers of this type have been discussed (such as the spirited discussion David linked from 2007) in which the Notre Dame theme also occurs, and there seem to be other theme type daggers of the mid to latter 19th century which form basis for many of these 20th century interpretations, as well as many of the French associations.

The link to the macabre may derive from the theme daggers produced in 16th century, where the 'dance of death' allegory was from the book published by Hans Holbein (the younger) in Lyon, and applied to the decoration of these daggers.

While many of these daggers invoke a foreboding appearance that seems to inspire many to label them satanic, thinking that these might be examples of the athame daggers used ceremonally, and better termed 'occult', these seem to be simply interpretive examples of the earlier theme daggers.
It seems some of these have brought some pretty amazing results when sold, however typically they seem to have had early blades from other weapons which added support to interesting provenance...but still the stories along with some of these are apocryphal at best.
The mention of fraternal and secret societies is well placed, and often unusual themed accoutrements have been used in all manner of regalia, so these kinds of attribution always have a degree of plausibility......by thier very nature though, research is pretty difficult

Still, these are intriguing in appearance and interesting pieces, always great for conversation!!

[Ron Anderson]

Thank you Jim

The question then is: is this 19th century or 20th?

I can't give a definitive answer to that. I have seen two of these gargoyles here in Sydney with subtle variation - one with its mouth open (mine) and the other its mouth closed.

Both have some age. The other had some damage to the scabbard. Mine was cleaned up by the person who sold it to me. Some of the silver plating has gone and the copper shines though. The blade shows signs of oxidation even though it's been cleaned up.

But age is hard to determine, as I am discovering daily. I have a gaucho here dated 1965 and the blade looks two hundred years old. I also have a briquet that seems to be a 100 years younger than I thought it was.

At the same time, I have an 18th century hunting sword from Austria in beautiful condition, with very little to suggest its age.

I will say that if this is a 20th century dagger, it is not a new one. If it is not antique, it is certainly vintage.

It is hard to see those subtle signs that suggest age over a photo. In these photos they have all been eliminated by the flash.

Regards
Ron

[fernando]

Dague de pute, bodice dagger, garter dagger, you name it.
Perhaps at a certain stage they were the favourite defence weapon of 'ladies of uncertain bed', when working in the tumultuos ambience of gambling houses and cabarets ... easy to conceal and not large enough for a lethal blow.
I guess Ron's example is already a product more directed to the tourist market, with that gargoyle touch. Probably XX century.
Interesting how the base of the blade ('ricasso') follows the shape of those XIX examples.

.

[Marc]

Over the years I've seen a good handful of daggers of this type (the ones Fernando posted, I mean), with some variations (horn, ebony or ivory handles, for example, and either straight or wavy blades), but all of similar size and style, and all with the same kind of lenticular ricasso, also.
At least one of them (sorry, no pictures) was marked in the ricasso with:

1875
TOLEDO

I tend to consider them as fancy/utility/defence-if-there's-nothing-else-available, late 19th early 20th. Yes, here in Spain they are also frequently associated with... er... well, women who smoke and call you "honey"... but, frankly, I still have to find any reference that could give some real substance to this association. Until proven otherwise, I prefer to think of it as another "Collector's Label".
I kind of like the type, they are elegant and "chic", if you get my drift. The one presented here is a particularly nice one, though, even if only for the sculptural work. Congratulations .

[Jim McDougall]

My pleasure Ron! but I'm afraid I havent added much but plausible ideas, and as you note, estimating age is a tough one, especially after an item has been cleaned and (to me, sadly) the patination is gone. There are traces of it here in the hilt figure so there is some age, and I agree, the conditions in which the weapon has been held have great bearing on these things.

As I mentioned, this is clearly in '19th century style' as beautifully illustrated by Fernando and also well observed by Marc. Getting back to the colorful 'pulp fiction' collectors tales about being for ladies of the evening, like most of these stories, mostly hyperbole. This is not to say these might not have found such use, but then, its like assuming every 'gambler' in the 1880's in the American Wild West saloons carried a pocket derringer; every gunfighter had a Colt .45 'peacemaker' etc .
These daggers have effectively made blades, so they're not just decorative from what I can see, but they are an accoutrement, and clearly made to be seen, not concealed. That is why they seem to possibly be intended as a votive item ceremonially, or perhaps worn in the societal sense previously mentioned.

This is most likely 'vintage' (good word Ron! and with intriguing possibilities, which is a good thing for those of us with a bit of the romantic (an affliction which seems to go with the territory for empassioned collector/historians
Marc, hard to look at these interesting daggers and not think of Cirlot, and the symbolics!

All best regards,
Jim

[Ron Anderson]

Well, it's a keeper, certainly, but probably worth what I paid.

I'll be looking for more of these sorts of daggers. I agree, they are quite chic.

[spiral]

As a further edtion to the link of my "stubbern mule thread" posted by David here was the follow up thread to it!

linky!.....

There fascinating pieces, personly I doubt if many prostitutes bought fancy knives, the ponces ,pimps & brothel keepers might have done if they fancied though, after all they were the ones who usualy kept the money, I would surmise.

spiral

[Ron Anderson]

Thanks Spiral

I enjoyed that thread.

These are great knives. I'll be looking for more.