Scottish court sword?

Ron Anderson · 31st August 2010, 01:33 PM

Dear Collectors/Enthusiasts/Experts

I need help with this recent purchase. It appears to be a Scottish Court Sword. At least, that's my interpretation of what appears to be a thistle motif on both the hilt and the frog button. The blade is plain, no inscriptions. Surprisingly, it has no tip. It has a rounded end.

It is a nice looking sword. The scabbard is broken but still there. It seems old - 19th century certainly.But it has a boat-shaped guard. The design of the hilt is decidedly French rococo. Could it be older? And what is it?

Ron Anderson · 31st August 2010, 01:50 PM

I had a random thought. Could it be Japanese?

Or is that just crazy talk?

Jim McDougall · 31st August 2010, 08:01 PM

Hi Ron,
This appears to be a cast version of an 18th c. smallsword and following in degree some of the decorative themes, however this is most likely of 19th century or into early 20th. It seems quite possible that this might be a theatrical or societal accoutrement, and the thistle itself does not necessarily signal Scottish association.
The smallsword use actually was in decline by civilians by the end of the 18th century, and heavier versions did remain in use militarily by officers for longer. Most court swords had adopted neoclassic styles and themes, but the use of casting rather than the art of chiseling became more common, so the court sword idea is in degree well placed. The use of this type of rebated swordblade does not seem consistant with court swords, however the quaility of the mounts and scabbard are somewhat compelling. The idea of this being a 'societal'or fraternal type accoutrement would be better served if there were some type of symbolism or markings beyond the decorative motif.

Another interesting piece, and nicely made!

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 31st August 2010, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Anderson

I had a random thought. Could it be Japanese?

Or is that just crazy talk?

No such thing as crazy talk (usually

around here, all ideas random or otherwise are welcomed!!! We never know when those random thoughts might lead to important clues!!!
"...discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has
seen, and thinking what no one else has thought".
-Albert Szent-Gyorgi (1893-1986)

Dmitry · 31st August 2010, 11:09 PM

This is a contemporary replica of the mid-18th century boat-hilted small-sword. The decorations are quite typical of the Rococo style.

Ron Anderson · 1st September 2010, 12:06 AM

Well thank you Jim and Dmitry

It was among a group of Masonic swords. So I believe, Jim, that you are probably right in saying it is societal/fraternal. And perhaps an earlier masonic type.

I recognised it as a replica of a French-style 18th century smallsword and thought it might be a court sword. Of course, you're right in pointing out that court swords do not have cast hilts of this type.

It has what I can only describe as a kind of rounded blade profile, as other masonic swords do.

It is quite old. It's not of recent manufacture. Too old to be a movie prop, too good to be a theatre prop.

The lack of tip is surprising, but it fits into the scabbard perfectly. Scabbard and sword are a clear match.

There are no swords made in Australia. All are imported. Among the group was a fairly tacky toledo sword in Masonic style. So perhaps the fact that it's not etched is owing in some way to it being an import.

Incidentally, I bought another masonic sword among the group. It had the owners name inscribed but was otherwise a completely plain blade. More recent than this sword, but with a nice ivory handle.

So I guess not all Masonic swords, certainly here in Australia anyway, have Masonic symbols inscribed on them.

Thanks for your help.

Ron

Jim McDougall · 1st September 2010, 01:58 AM

The area of Masonic swords is notably vague in certain respects, particularly with those used ceremonially such as those held by the Tyler. While the regalia swords are well established with Masonic symbolism reflecting rank, lodge etc. that of the Tyler is not personally or specifically identified, at least in the examples I have seen.
By tradition, it seems that these swords are intended to have the wavy blade, but this seems superceded by instances where other types of sword with either historical, traditional or local importance associations take place as this key weapon to the lodge. In the U.S. there are various examples of Civil War sabres, rehilted versions with Mexican blades with 'Spanish Motto', presentation swords of military officers with significant service and lodge members etc.

The rebated blade corresponds to many traditional bearing swords or swords of state in Europe and in England with these type blade tips....these are also similar to 'executioner' swords, which also are grouped with these type swords. Perhaps the squared tip reflects this type importance in use in a Masonic or fraternal situation, and as noted, would not necessarily have been marked.

For those out there who are Freemasons, please forgive my speculative description of the Tylers sword in Masonic tradition, which is as close as I understand and hopefully at least nominally correct.

Returning to Ron's observation on the thistle, possibly if this is indeed a Masonic sword, perhaps the Scottish Rite might be surmised?

Ron Anderson · 1st September 2010, 02:23 AM

Hi Jim

Another strong reason for my suspicion of it being Scottish is that it came from a Scottish home. In fact, it came from the home of someone with a Scottish aristocratic connection.

Ron

Dmitry · 1st September 2010, 02:25 AM

Even though it was purchased along with some Masonic swords, I would forgo the Masonic attribution, and go to the reenactor's market on this one. Which doesn't mean that this sword wasn't used in Masonic rituals.

Due to the interest in the 18th century military reenactments all over the world, replicas, like this one, are made and sold by many sutlers, and have been for the last 30 years or so.

http://www.re-enactmentshop.com/p_18th_century.htm
http://www.gggodwin.com/cartgenie/prodList.asp?scat=10
http://www.americanrevolution.org/reenact.html

My $.02

Ron Anderson · 1st September 2010, 03:26 AM

HI Dmiitry

Thank you.

I fear you are right. I've just found this item on google - identical to my hilt (see below).

So this appears to be an exact replica of a Scottish small sword (the Auld Alliance – Scottish items often follow French styles). Which explains the thistles.

The owner of this sword and the masonic swords I mentioned was named Hogg – a Scottish family long connected with the freemasons.

I'd say it's a lot older than 30 years, however. The leather is old and brittle, broken in three places. The blade is heavily oxidised. It appears to be an old replica for a proud Scottish family. (A proud Scot - who'd have thought?)

http://www.antiques-arms.com/catalog...er-pi-429.html

Ron Anderson · 7th September 2010, 12:28 PM

Yesterday I took this sword back to the man I bought it from and swapped it for a masonic sword. A horrible recently-made sword (it has a gauche Toledo blade and a yellow plastic handle under the wire on the grip.)

I don't even like masonic swords. But really - for me a poor piece of authenticity of any kind is better than a quality fake.

This guy is an old man who doesn't generally deal in swords and for some reason yesterday he suddenly remembered where they had come from – a ballet company.

So Jim was right. It was a theatrical item. A very well made one. I suspect made in the later 19th or early 20th century, and probably by a real sword maker. Certainly, the scabbard seemed authentic. This was not a contemporary re-enactment piece.

You don't find many old replicas - not here in Australia.

End of story. You live and learn.

laEspadaAncha · 26th September 2010, 08:33 AM

Kind of late to the game in responding to this thread, but... in Wither's self-published World Swords, he shows this very similar pattern hilt (actually twice) in his smallswords section and attributes it to ca. 1760 (and later to ca. 1800). Cutlers often had established pattern numbers from manufacturers they offered to their customers, such as those Bezdek shows on pgs. 269-273 in his book on English (and Scottish) sword makers. It would seem reasonable that some patterns (such as this Rococo pattern) would have been more popular than others, whether it be for stylistic or cost reasons, the latter which would have been impacted by the use of cast hilts to meet the demand at the time. After all, what 18th C. gentleman worth his weight would be caught without his smallsword?

Jim McDougall · 26th September 2010, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Kind of late to the game in responding to this thread, but... in Wither's self-published World Swords, he shows this very similar pattern hilt (actually twice) in his smallswords section and attributes it to ca. 1760 (and later to ca. 1800). Cutlers often had established pattern numbers from manufacturers they offered to their customers, such as those Bezdek shows on pgs. 269-273 in his book on English (and Scottish) sword makers. It would seem reasonable that some patterns (such as this Rococo pattern) would have been more popular than others, whether it be for stylistic or cost reasons, the latter which would have been impacted by the use of cast hilts to meet the demand at the time. After all, what 18th C. gentleman worth his weight would be caught without his smallsword?

Nicely researched Chris, and well made points on the social importance of smallswords in the 18th century. It is quite true that all this fashion did call for a great degree of selection in the styles befitting the gentleman, and the cutlers did thier best to accomodate by cataloguing various styles and features to order. Many of these pattern books have been the mainstay of the esoteric quest for smallsword research, and would have possibly even been known to theatrical outfitters.

Ron thank you for the kind note on my suggestion, and in my opinion even these kinds of weapons have thier own degree of novelty niche'. I recall interesting stories and even movies about the mid to latter 19th century travelling theatrical troupes, which had a history all thier own, as they portrayed classical and historical themes. I would guess that the unusually rounded tip on the blade would have prevented any accidental cuts on stage.

All best regards,
Jim

Ron Anderson · 26th September 2010, 09:30 AM

Hi, Jim.

Indeed, the rounded tip was no doubt useful. Good ballet dancers are hard to replace.

On that point, there were several small indentations and marks all the way along the sword, as if it had been used in a mock sword fight. These only made sense when I realised it was a theatrical sword.

Certainly, it made no sense at all when I thought it might be a court or masonic sword.

Interesting, because I've not seen those kinds of marks on any real swords. And it just goes to show the way people imagine the way that swords are fought with is probably quite different from the way they were employed in a real life fight.

No doubt the actors/dancers here engaged in a lot of knocking swords together and prancing around on stage, and very little true cut and thrust.

Jim McDougall · 26th September 2010, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Anderson

Hi, Jim.

Indeed, the rounded tip was no doubt useful. Good ballet dancers are hard to replace.

On that point, there were several small indentations and marks all the way along the sword, as if it had been used in a mock sword fight. These only made sense when I realised it was a theatrical sword.

Certainly, it made no sense at all when I thought it might be a court or masonic sword.

Interesting, because I've not seen those kinds of marks on any real swords. And it just goes to show the way people imagine the way that swords are fought with is probably quite different from the way they were employed in a real life fight.

No doubt the actors/dancers here engaged in a lot of knocking swords together and prancing around on stage, and very little true cut and thrust.

Hi Ron,
Absolutely, and it does seem almost comical in a sense when we think of those staged combats as they must have appeared in todays terms, but at the time they must have well carried the theme of the production. Those very same theatrics were of course the ancestors of the wonderful old classic films with Fairbanks and Flynn, the swashbuckling action, and the very cause of my lifelong affliction with the study of swords and arms.

I recall there was a course offered in college at one time that was indeed called 'Stage Combat', and was a fencing course attuned to using actual fencing technique in somewhat exaggerated sense as would be expected.
I believe the 'tutus' were optional

All the best,
Jim

31st August 2010, 01:33 PM	#1
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Scottish court sword? Dear Collectors/Enthusiasts/Experts I need help with this recent purchase. It appears to be a Scottish Court Sword. At least, that's my interpretation of what appears to be a thistle motif on both the hilt and the frog button. The blade is plain, no inscriptions. Surprisingly, it has no tip. It has a rounded end. It is a nice looking sword. The scabbard is broken but still there. It seems old - 19th century certainly.But it has a boat-shaped guard. The design of the hilt is decidedly French rococo. Could it be older? And what is it? Attached Images

31st August 2010, 08:01 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Hi Ron, This appears to be a cast version of an 18th c. smallsword and following in degree some of the decorative themes, however this is most likely of 19th century or into early 20th. It seems quite possible that this might be a theatrical or societal accoutrement, and the thistle itself does not necessarily signal Scottish association. The smallsword use actually was in decline by civilians by the end of the 18th century, and heavier versions did remain in use militarily by officers for longer. Most court swords had adopted neoclassic styles and themes, but the use of casting rather than the art of chiseling became more common, so the court sword idea is in degree well placed. The use of this type of rebated swordblade does not seem consistant with court swords, however the quaility of the mounts and scabbard are somewhat compelling. The idea of this being a 'societal'or fraternal type accoutrement would be better served if there were some type of symbolism or markings beyond the decorative motif. Another interesting piece, and nicely made! All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 31st August 2010 at 08:12 PM.

1st September 2010, 01:58 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	The area of Masonic swords is notably vague in certain respects, particularly with those used ceremonially such as those held by the Tyler. While the regalia swords are well established with Masonic symbolism reflecting rank, lodge etc. that of the Tyler is not personally or specifically identified, at least in the examples I have seen. By tradition, it seems that these swords are intended to have the wavy blade, but this seems superceded by instances where other types of sword with either historical, traditional or local importance associations take place as this key weapon to the lodge. In the U.S. there are various examples of Civil War sabres, rehilted versions with Mexican blades with 'Spanish Motto', presentation swords of military officers with significant service and lodge members etc. The rebated blade corresponds to many traditional bearing swords or swords of state in Europe and in England with these type blade tips....these are also similar to 'executioner' swords, which also are grouped with these type swords. Perhaps the squared tip reflects this type importance in use in a Masonic or fraternal situation, and as noted, would not necessarily have been marked. For those out there who are Freemasons, please forgive my speculative description of the Tylers sword in Masonic tradition, which is as close as I understand and hopefully at least nominally correct. Returning to Ron's observation on the thistle, possibly if this is indeed a Masonic sword, perhaps the Scottish Rite might be surmised? Last edited by Jim McDougall; 1st September 2010 at 02:09 AM.

31st August 2010, 01:50 PM	#2
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	I had a random thought. Could it be Japanese? Or is that just crazy talk?

31st August 2010, 11:09 PM	#5
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	This is a contemporary replica of the mid-18th century boat-hilted small-sword. The decorations are quite typical of the Rococo style.

1st September 2010, 12:06 AM	#6
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Well thank you Jim and Dmitry It was among a group of Masonic swords. So I believe, Jim, that you are probably right in saying it is societal/fraternal. And perhaps an earlier masonic type. I recognised it as a replica of a French-style 18th century smallsword and thought it might be a court sword. Of course, you're right in pointing out that court swords do not have cast hilts of this type. It has what I can only describe as a kind of rounded blade profile, as other masonic swords do. It is quite old. It's not of recent manufacture. Too old to be a movie prop, too good to be a theatre prop. The lack of tip is surprising, but it fits into the scabbard perfectly. Scabbard and sword are a clear match. There are no swords made in Australia. All are imported. Among the group was a fairly tacky toledo sword in Masonic style. So perhaps the fact that it's not etched is owing in some way to it being an import. Incidentally, I bought another masonic sword among the group. It had the owners name inscribed but was otherwise a completely plain blade. More recent than this sword, but with a nice ivory handle. So I guess not all Masonic swords, certainly here in Australia anyway, have Masonic symbols inscribed on them. Thanks for your help. Ron

1st September 2010, 02:23 AM	#8
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Jim Another strong reason for my suspicion of it being Scottish is that it came from a Scottish home. In fact, it came from the home of someone with a Scottish aristocratic connection. Ron

1st September 2010, 02:25 AM	#9
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Even though it was purchased along with some Masonic swords, I would forgo the Masonic attribution, and go to the reenactor's market on this one. Which doesn't mean that this sword wasn't used in Masonic rituals. Due to the interest in the 18th century military reenactments all over the world, replicas, like this one, are made and sold by many sutlers, and have been for the last 30 years or so. http://www.re-enactmentshop.com/p_18th_century.htm http://www.gggodwin.com/cartgenie/prodList.asp?scat=10 http://www.americanrevolution.org/reenact.html My $.02

1st September 2010, 03:26 AM	#10
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	HI Dmiitry Thank you. I fear you are right. I've just found this item on google - identical to my hilt (see below). So this appears to be an exact replica of a Scottish small sword (the Auld Alliance – Scottish items often follow French styles). Which explains the thistles. The owner of this sword and the masonic swords I mentioned was named Hogg – a Scottish family long connected with the freemasons. I'd say it's a lot older than 30 years, however. The leather is old and brittle, broken in three places. The blade is heavily oxidised. It appears to be an old replica for a proud Scottish family. (A proud Scot - who'd have thought?) http://www.antiques-arms.com/catalog...er-pi-429.html

7th September 2010, 12:28 PM	#11
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Yesterday I took this sword back to the man I bought it from and swapped it for a masonic sword. A horrible recently-made sword (it has a gauche Toledo blade and a yellow plastic handle under the wire on the grip.) I don't even like masonic swords. But really - for me a poor piece of authenticity of any kind is better than a quality fake. This guy is an old man who doesn't generally deal in swords and for some reason yesterday he suddenly remembered where they had come from – a ballet company. So Jim was right. It was a theatrical item. A very well made one. I suspect made in the later 19th or early 20th century, and probably by a real sword maker. Certainly, the scabbard seemed authentic. This was not a contemporary re-enactment piece. You don't find many old replicas - not here in Australia. End of story. You live and learn.

26th September 2010, 08:33 AM	#12
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Kind of late to the game in responding to this thread, but... in Wither's self-published World Swords, he shows this very similar pattern hilt (actually twice) in his smallswords section and attributes it to ca. 1760 (and later to ca. 1800). Cutlers often had established pattern numbers from manufacturers they offered to their customers, such as those Bezdek shows on pgs. 269-273 in his book on English (and Scottish) sword makers. It would seem reasonable that some patterns (such as this Rococo pattern) would have been more popular than others, whether it be for stylistic or cost reasons, the latter which would have been impacted by the use of cast hilts to meet the demand at the time. After all, what 18th C. gentleman worth his weight would be caught without his smallsword?

26th September 2010, 09:30 AM	#14
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi, Jim. Indeed, the rounded tip was no doubt useful. Good ballet dancers are hard to replace. On that point, there were several small indentations and marks all the way along the sword, as if it had been used in a mock sword fight. These only made sense when I realised it was a theatrical sword. Certainly, it made no sense at all when I thought it might be a court or masonic sword. Interesting, because I've not seen those kinds of marks on any real swords. And it just goes to show the way people imagine the way that swords are fought with is probably quite different from the way they were employed in a real life fight. No doubt the actors/dancers here engaged in a lot of knocking swords together and prancing around on stage, and very little true cut and thrust.