Firangi, or basket-hilted tulwar

Emanuel · 17th August 2010, 02:36 AM

Here's one of my recent acquisitions. I had the feeling that it's a firangi with British blade. Haven't been able to confirm it and the seller, a fellow forumite here, feels it is an Indian blade.
I particularly like the pierced basket on this piece. Oriental-Arms has a similar one that he considers very old and I believe there are a few in Elgood as well. There are solder repairs to one of the quillons and at the junction of the basket guard and the hilt.
Any thoughts on this piece?

Emanuel

Lew · 17th August 2010, 04:18 AM

Emanuel

It looks like a nice example too bad about the back spike was cut down.

Still a nice piece.

Lew

minzzywinzzy · 17th August 2010, 03:10 PM

I saw one of these going back 2-3 months ago.

very similar but slightly larger.

Nice sword.

Lee · 18th August 2010, 01:40 PM

I have seen blades of similar form with this fuller pattern mounted in a variety of ways (and as diverse as a North African nimcha and a colonial American saber) and so I am led to expect that this is a trade blade of European origin, later 18th to early 19th century - so I'd opine that you have a nice firangi.

A caveat: the blade does look a bit crudely formed in some of the photos, but this may also reflect wear and resharpening. It could be a local copy of such a blade; greater flexibility would favor European versus greater rigidity expected in a local copy.

Jens Nordlunde · 18th August 2010, 05:05 PM

Emanuel,

Lee took nicely care of the blade, so now only the hilt remains, and as no one else has volunteered I will.

The hilt is from the south, maybe Deccan 17th/18th century.

Jens

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2010, 05:35 PM

Im with Lee and Jens on this as well, that blade is Continental European and most likely Solingen into the 18th century but as early as late 17th....it may well be Netherlands as well and definitely a trade blade. As Jens notes, a southern type feel to the hilt, and I have seen this type metal on patas of this age, which were also of the same regional perspective.
The pata I refer to also had a very early blade, with markings of 18th century style, a broadsword blade, which was also mercilessly sharpened over many years.
A really attractive solid and honest example, all the better in this rough as is condition, to me history itself stands proud in this one!!!
Nice going Emanuel!!!

All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 18th August 2010, 10:58 PM

Thank you all for the replies

It's nice to hear this sword could be so old. Lee the blade is flexible and the crudeness is the result of sharpening and possibly someone trying to smooth out dents and nicks in the past. Otherwise everything is crisp about this blade.
The fuller pattern is what made me think European blades. For some reason I thought British but I can't quite identify any pattern with this type of fullering.

I actually just received some khukri and it's striking how the quality of fullers impacts the overall aspect of a blade. One has straight, deep and regular fullers like this firangi, while the other has superficial, irregular ones that are more of an afterthought. Nice fullers seem to add much more to the piece.

Thank you Jim and Jens for the hilt confirmation. I think it's in "Hindu Arms and Ritual" that I saw a similar southern hilt; I'll check. Lew I'm not so sure the spike was cut. I've seen pics of firangi with these smaller spikes, and this one looks too clean without any sign of breakage.

I'm very pleased with this sword, looking forward to it being in my care for a long time.

Best regards to all,
Emanuel

Atlantia · 18th August 2010, 11:47 PM

Hi Emanuel.
Very interesting sword. Are the repairs definately solder (Lead) they look very much like steel welds in the pictures.
Best
Gene

Emanuel · 19th August 2010, 12:15 AM

Hi Gene,

I don't know why I assumed it was solder, probably due to its ease and the shaping that was done. It could very well be a tack weld.

Emanuel

ariel · 20th August 2010, 05:39 PM

I wanted to point out the same soldering/welding question... I am also intrigued by the putty holding the blade: isn't it epoxy?
Overall, I have an uneasy feeling that the sword was recently assembled from repaired parts.
Hope to be wrong.

Atlantia · 20th August 2010, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I wanted to point out the same soldering/welding question... I am also intrigued by the putty holding the blade: isn't it epoxy?
Overall, I have an uneasy feeling that the sword was recently assembled from repaired parts.
Hope to be wrong.

I had similar fears TBH.
Well, I didn't want to be the only person to make such observations.... But....

The welding is key for me. I initially wondered if it was gas or arc welded (I believe it's one or the other) and I decided that I think it's arc welded. It looks like it has been welded both sides of the guard on one side of the hilt and just on the inside of the guard on the other side.
So, whether that is 3 long welds or there is a forth, it would have produced enough heat to make most of the hilt uninhabitable for the thermal resin used to secure the blade.
It would have probobly boiled out of the front part, or caught fire.
If it was gas welded (a much slower process) then the heat would have been even greater.
So for me, the resin must have been replaced, no question.
Next thing I wondered about was if the welding was a repair, or to marry the guard to a different handle?
The work on the pierced guard looks rather fine, and the chiseling on the grip looks like a strange match to me in a way.
It could just be that this sword was repaired and the resin had to be replaced. Or it could be that the sword is a marriage.
I also hate being the bearer of possible bad news.
Best
Gene

katana · 21st August 2010, 05:57 PM

Hi Emanuel,
I too have a few reservations on your sword

The handle seems to have a seam on the top and bottom edges......perhaps, the two halves were added to cover a badly corroded handle. Welding heat would certainly liquidise the resin....but if the sword was supported with the blade pointing straight up (whilst welding) ....resin loss may have been reduced. Alternatively the handle could have been warmed, the blade removed and then after more heating the resin drained from the cavity and re-used. The welding seems alittle 'over the top' ....a finer welded seam could have been achieved with a MIG welder. However, this may indicate that less refined welding equipment was used, which, could further mean that the welding occured a while ago.

http://www.arcwelding.info/historyofarcwelding.html

Like Lew, I also feel that the spike has been cut, the edges are burred over and the end surface doe not look 'right'. I believe that on a number of this type of hilted sword the tang is attached to the pommel/pommel spike. I am wondering, if this is the case with this sword whether the spike was cut down, a hole drilled through it from the end (think pipe) the tang located into the hole and then welded to secure it. Once the weld is cleaned up/ground back it would be difficult to see the repair.

But, it is also possible that a change of blade would affect the dynamics of the sword and the removal of the spike was to aid function.

Whatever the outcome, it is a nice looking piece ....which could have been 'altered' some time ago.

Kind Regards David

Emanuel · 23rd August 2010, 03:33 PM

Great arguments!

The welding repair and the new putty do not bother me the least bit. How many times on this forum has someone asked about ways to fix loose handles with modern adhesives? That it may be epoxy instead of the old putty is not a problem.

Attached pics are of a near-identical hilt from OA. You can still see the marks on the blade from an earlier hilt arrangement, but this hilt looks solid, with no alterations or repairs. I haven't seen many of these hilts so they're not currently mass-produced. The hilt on my example could very well have been married to the balde recently, and David, your scenario with the cutting of the spike is plausible, but both pieces seem to be quite old.

Overall I still feel like this piece is representative of an old firangi so I'm happy with it

Emanuel

Atlantia · 23rd August 2010, 07:18 PM

Emanuel
Something hot touched against the resin would tell you if it is epoxy or something more 'authentic'.
I think your above comments are entirely pragmatic and sensible.
I would also remind you that as the only one of us who can actually handle the sword, YOU are in the best position to say if the hilt repairs are just repairs or more.
I would also reiterate that the resin would have to be replaced after the welding, so it may be nothing more sinister than that. In other words a welded repair and the consequential necessary replacement of some/all of the resin. In other words still a complete and original form.
What is your 'feeling'?
Best
Gene

ariel · 25th August 2010, 05:08 AM

BTW, anybody knows an easy recipe for the authentic Indian putty?
If we look at the ingredients ( shellac, turpentine, crushed limestone) it sure sounds like an easily obtainable sealing wax.

Emanuel · 10th September 2010, 05:33 PM

Hi Gene,

I haven't tested the adhesive yet but it would not surprise me or bother me if it were epoxy. The hilt, guard and blade seem to match very well, so the question turns to who would make this repair and for what purpose. I can't answer that, but the existence of OA's very similar set with no apparent repairs to it is a strong indication for me that the sword in question is an original assembly. The repairs might have been carried out in any number of scenarios, and overall I feel pretty good about the result.

Ariel, I think Indian putty is much like Nepalese laha, a mix of pine resin, beeswax and charcoal. A similar recipe for cutler's resin is 4 part pine pitch, 1 part beeswax and 1 part carnauba wax. I think you can replace the carnauba with charcoal or powedered lime or gipsum. Ssme time ago someone also posted a recipe for Cutler's Cement on the forum...

Emanuel

17th August 2010, 02:36 AM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Firangi, or basket-hilted tulwar Here's one of my recent acquisitions. I had the feeling that it's a firangi with British blade. Haven't been able to confirm it and the seller, a fellow forumite here, feels it is an Indian blade. I particularly like the pierced basket on this piece. Oriental-Arms has a similar one that he considers very old and I believe there are a few in Elgood as well. There are solder repairs to one of the quillons and at the junction of the basket guard and the hilt. Any thoughts on this piece? Emanuel Attached Images

17th August 2010, 03:10 PM	#3
minzzywinzzy Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 5	Seen one of these ! I saw one of these going back 2-3 months ago. very similar but slightly larger. Nice sword.

18th August 2010, 01:40 PM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	firangi I have seen blades of similar form with this fuller pattern mounted in a variety of ways (and as diverse as a North African nimcha and a colonial American saber) and so I am led to expect that this is a trade blade of European origin, later 18th to early 19th century - so I'd opine that you have a nice firangi. A caveat: the blade does look a bit crudely formed in some of the photos, but this may also reflect wear and resharpening. It could be a local copy of such a blade; greater flexibility would favor European versus greater rigidity expected in a local copy.

18th August 2010, 05:05 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Firangi Emanuel, Lee took nicely care of the blade, so now only the hilt remains, and as no one else has volunteered I will. The hilt is from the south, maybe Deccan 17th/18th century. Jens

23rd August 2010, 03:33 PM	#13
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Great arguments! The welding repair and the new putty do not bother me the least bit. How many times on this forum has someone asked about ways to fix loose handles with modern adhesives? That it may be epoxy instead of the old putty is not a problem. Attached pics are of a near-identical hilt from OA. You can still see the marks on the blade from an earlier hilt arrangement, but this hilt looks solid, with no alterations or repairs. I haven't seen many of these hilts so they're not currently mass-produced. The hilt on my example could very well have been married to the balde recently, and David, your scenario with the cutting of the spike is plausible, but both pieces seem to be quite old. Overall I still feel like this piece is representative of an old firangi so I'm happy with it Emanuel Attached Images

17th August 2010, 04:18 AM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Emanuel It looks like a nice example too bad about the back spike was cut down. Still a nice piece. Lew

18th August 2010, 05:35 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Im with Lee and Jens on this as well, that blade is Continental European and most likely Solingen into the 18th century but as early as late 17th....it may well be Netherlands as well and definitely a trade blade. As Jens notes, a southern type feel to the hilt, and I have seen this type metal on patas of this age, which were also of the same regional perspective. The pata I refer to also had a very early blade, with markings of 18th century style, a broadsword blade, which was also mercilessly sharpened over many years. A really attractive solid and honest example, all the better in this rough as is condition, to me history itself stands proud in this one!!! Nice going Emanuel!!! All the best, Jim

18th August 2010, 10:58 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thank you all for the replies It's nice to hear this sword could be so old. Lee the blade is flexible and the crudeness is the result of sharpening and possibly someone trying to smooth out dents and nicks in the past. Otherwise everything is crisp about this blade. The fuller pattern is what made me think European blades. For some reason I thought British but I can't quite identify any pattern with this type of fullering. I actually just received some khukri and it's striking how the quality of fullers impacts the overall aspect of a blade. One has straight, deep and regular fullers like this firangi, while the other has superficial, irregular ones that are more of an afterthought. Nice fullers seem to add much more to the piece. Thank you Jim and Jens for the hilt confirmation. I think it's in "Hindu Arms and Ritual" that I saw a similar southern hilt; I'll check. Lew I'm not so sure the spike was cut. I've seen pics of firangi with these smaller spikes, and this one looks too clean without any sign of breakage. I'm very pleased with this sword, looking forward to it being in my care for a long time. Best regards to all, Emanuel

18th August 2010, 11:47 PM	#8
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Emanuel. Very interesting sword. Are the repairs definately solder (Lead) they look very much like steel welds in the pictures. Best Gene

19th August 2010, 12:15 AM	#9
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Gene, I don't know why I assumed it was solder, probably due to its ease and the shaping that was done. It could very well be a tack weld. Emanuel

20th August 2010, 05:39 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I wanted to point out the same soldering/welding question... I am also intrigued by the putty holding the blade: isn't it epoxy? Overall, I have an uneasy feeling that the sword was recently assembled from repaired parts. Hope to be wrong.

21st August 2010, 05:57 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Emanuel, I too have a few reservations on your sword The handle seems to have a seam on the top and bottom edges......perhaps, the two halves were added to cover a badly corroded handle. Welding heat would certainly liquidise the resin....but if the sword was supported with the blade pointing straight up (whilst welding) ....resin loss may have been reduced. Alternatively the handle could have been warmed, the blade removed and then after more heating the resin drained from the cavity and re-used. The welding seems alittle 'over the top' ....a finer welded seam could have been achieved with a MIG welder. However, this may indicate that less refined welding equipment was used, which, could further mean that the welding occured a while ago. http://www.arcwelding.info/historyofarcwelding.html Like Lew, I also feel that the spike has been cut, the edges are burred over and the end surface doe not look 'right'. I believe that on a number of this type of hilted sword the tang is attached to the pommel/pommel spike. I am wondering, if this is the case with this sword whether the spike was cut down, a hole drilled through it from the end (think pipe) the tang located into the hole and then welded to secure it. Once the weld is cleaned up/ground back it would be difficult to see the repair. But, it is also possible that a change of blade would affect the dynamics of the sword and the removal of the spike was to aid function. Whatever the outcome, it is a nice looking piece ....which could have been 'altered' some time ago. Kind Regards David

23rd August 2010, 07:18 PM	#14
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Emanuel Something hot touched against the resin would tell you if it is epoxy or something more 'authentic'. I think your above comments are entirely pragmatic and sensible. I would also remind you that as the only one of us who can actually handle the sword, YOU are in the best position to say if the hilt repairs are just repairs or more. I would also reiterate that the resin would have to be replaced after the welding, so it may be nothing more sinister than that. In other words a welded repair and the consequential necessary replacement of some/all of the resin. In other words still a complete and original form. What is your 'feeling'? Best Gene

25th August 2010, 05:08 AM	#15
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	BTW, anybody knows an easy recipe for the authentic Indian putty? If we look at the ingredients ( shellac, turpentine, crushed limestone) it sure sounds like an easily obtainable sealing wax.

10th September 2010, 05:33 PM	#16
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Gene, I haven't tested the adhesive yet but it would not surprise me or bother me if it were epoxy. The hilt, guard and blade seem to match very well, so the question turns to who would make this repair and for what purpose. I can't answer that, but the existence of OA's very similar set with no apparent repairs to it is a strong indication for me that the sword in question is an original assembly. The repairs might have been carried out in any number of scenarios, and overall I feel pretty good about the result. Ariel, I think Indian putty is much like Nepalese laha, a mix of pine resin, beeswax and charcoal. A similar recipe for cutler's resin is 4 part pine pitch, 1 part beeswax and 1 part carnauba wax. I think you can replace the carnauba with charcoal or powedered lime or gipsum. Ssme time ago someone also posted a recipe for Cutler's Cement on the forum... Emanuel Last edited by Emanuel; 10th September 2010 at 05:53 PM.