Baskethilt

[fernando]

sorry, forgot to upload.
NO, IT WAS THE SIZE.

[fernando]

hi Jeff
is that sword the real thing? are we talking XVI century here? sorry for my ignorance.
but let's see: the cross ( no picture ) must be what i mentioned in the templar/masonic theme. the orb, most possibly the armilary orb ( esfera armilar ) was king dom manuel symbol ( 1495-1521 ).
he had it in all the country castle doors and in the armoury of the forces he sent out aboard the first long route discovery ships. eventualy both his orb and the templar cross appeared together in arms, armour, flags and i think sails of the time.the word portugal in "viva de portugal" must be portvgal, if you look better at the blade. the v for an u was dropped from the portuguese ( and castilian ... ) "just the other day". but the wording still doesn't make sense as a phrase. something is abnormal here.
i have picture of a 1642 portuguese extendeable blade rapier ( to ilude the blade length allowance ) quoted to have inscribed " viva el rey de portugael ". this pattern went on for a couple centuries, with and without the name of the king. in another picture, and with all the doubts for my non skilled eye, i see a sword similar to yours, named as a "combat (european ) sword of the second quarter XVI century", a beautyfull and emblematic portuguese specimen.
being genuine, your sword is not invalueable, but on the way to that.
keep well

[fernando]

how about this ?
http://www.arscives.com/cejunior/portarmour/007.htm

[midelburgo]

Hello,
I was just passing by and saw the current discussion...
Very interesting the arscives 1991 site. Lots of interesting swords there, although some miscatalogation too. For example number 5 is not African but a very specific portuguese form from late XVth early XVIth. Some "Portuguese made" I find discutible on the other hand.

But what brought me here. I am also intrigued by the motto "no me embaines..." and would be very interesting to find a XVI century sword with it. However I consider the example provided to be a remounting with a newer (Late XVII to early XVIIIth , possibly genoese) blade.

About Portuguese patriotic mottoes, they appear for example even in official Spanish military models (like what later would be the called 1728 model, an example at Poldi-Pezzoli, Milan), and cannot give clues about nationalities.

Javier

[fernando]

hi midelburg
the miscatalogation of these examples does not end with the sources appointing to the earlier period this motto was engraved on blades. same with the language used, maybe latin came first.
when the spanish conquistadores founded bogota in 1538, their leader gonzalo jimenez de quesada was using a toledo sword with the motto no me saques sin razon ... a code of the followers of el cid ( quoting jose maria vergara y vergara in fundacion de bogota ).
el cid lived on 1043-1099. if this were a true story, contradicts the prior assumption that the motto was originated on the templars oath, as this order was founded later.
the missing link prevails

[Rivkin]

I'm not a specialist on templars, but I would doubt any connection with the motto. Very similar motto in different languages exist in every caucasian nation - circassians, chechens etc. , only instead of "honor" they have "blood".

On the other hand, I seriously doubt that real templars (I don't mean Christian clubs, that put "templars" in their names) would use such an oath. Obedience, humility (they had to give up their pocessions, did not they ?) and faith would be far more appropriate virtues for a templar, rather than honor.

Honor was always associated with a relatively secular world - you can't imagine the Pope "defending his honor" by slashing someone in half ?

[fernando]

hi Rivkin
i am no specialist either.
but maybe things are not just black and white.
on one hand we can read that the order's rules did not allow for any kind of decorations on their swords. but they were men at arms, a military order, meant to use their weapons, eventually in the name of christ. and boy, they intensively did.assuming the motto as such was not developed by the order, its basic concept wouln't look so unfit in their cruzader cavalry codes.
it's true they had to give away their possessions ... but it doesn't seem they ever wanted it to. in the beginning, they were named "poor knights" assuming they lived personally as beggars, but suddenly the order appeared dealling with imense fortunes ... specially silver. they practised banking and put up the letter of credit. when they were banned, their real estate was transferred to another order, but they managed to go around and get it back.
as for the slasher pope idea, it depends on the period and on the pope. alexander VI ( borgia ) for example, used poison to knock his victims, our famous motto wouldn't suit the poison flask situation.

[Jeff D]

Hi All,

Sorry for the late response, things have been very busy. Thanks for all the input, I had never thought of a templar/masonic connection to any of the symbols or mottos. That is something I will try to look into in the future.

Fernando, I do think my second sword is 16th maybe early 17th century. The quillions are probably not original. I also believe you are correct with the v instead of the u. As mentioned it is in storage right now, but I will bring it out in the next couple months to check it and will take photo's then.

Thanks again to every one for the great discussion.

All the Best.
Jeff

[midelburgo]

I think the reason of not finding the "no me envaines" motto earlier than late XVII is both technical and cultural. Technical because the use of cheap acid etching did not become spread before that (OK we find it in Royal swords in XIII century but that is not common). It was usual than the letters were carved or punched one by one, and texts are shorter, rarely more than 10 characters, quite often ininteligible acrostics, and here comes the cultural point, taking the effort to do them, they prefer religious to boastful phrases, at less while swords are more a killing tool than a fashion toy.

Still it is perfectly possible that an example from XVIth or earlier exists, but it will be far from common. When did that Vargas wrote? I would trust him if contemporary to the facts, but not later (the least if he is from XIXth. c). For example Colombians keep as a sacred relic the so called "Sword of Bolivar", suposed to be used in their independance from Spain, 1815-1821, what it is actually a Toledo model from about 1835.

Now I think of it I have a boast rapier blade from around 1610, it has written by punching inside the fuller: "NOMENE TENGO", what possibly means "no me ne attretengo". In English from an Italian dialect "I do not care", and it was adopted as business mark from a Bergamo swordsmith. I will not be surprised if the "no me envaine motto" appeared first in a mutilated way or as initials:
N.M.S.S.R-N.M.E.S.H

Javier