Posted on request: ivory,silver & twistcore!

[Maurice]

This nice kris, which I got from a friendcollector, I am posting on request by a forum member for discussion.
Any comments (concerning this kris!) are welcome.

BTW there are traces there were 2 clamps in the past.

Maurice

[Battara]

I will take a stab at this. This is a beautiful sundang.

Although it looks Moro in some respects, I think it is perhaps more Indonesian. Silver bands on the hilt are done in repousse - something that Moros do not traditionally do. As hilt shapes go, this one does not have the usual peninsular Malaysian sundang hilt profile. Yet the pommel looks more like an early Moro form (with the small tail broken off).

The twistcore blade is almost the entire blade, not just the middle like in early Moro pieces traditionally. Also the front part looks almost Maguindanao, but Moro blades do not have the elephant also in the back part of the ganga. This is strange even for a peninsular Malaysian sundang. In addition to this oddity, the blade is not etched like the usual Malaysian method.

I will reflect more on this piece and if anything comes to me I will post. Others may see things which I miss and I would be grateful for their feedback.

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Battara

I will take a stab at this. This is a beautiful sundang.

Although it looks Moro in some respects, I think it is perhaps more Indonesian. Silver bands on the hilt are done in repousse - something that Moros do not traditionally do. As hilt shapes go, this one does not have the usual peninsular Malaysian sundang hilt profile. Yet the pommel looks more like an early Moro form (with the small tail broken off).

The twistcore blade is almost the entire blade, not just the middle like in early Moro pieces traditionally. Also the front part looks almost Maguindanao, but Moro blades do not have the elephant also in the back part of the ganga. This is strange even for a peninsular Malaysian sundang. In addition to this oddity, the blade is not etched like the usual Malaysian method.

I will reflect more on this piece and if anything comes to me I will post. Others may see things which I miss and I would be grateful for their feedback.

Thanks for your feedback.
I am looking forward what others got to say about this one. Moro or sundang?
I guess it is tougher without scabbard.
By the way, the twistcore is definately not the entire blade. It is over the whole length of the blade, but only in the centre. A distance from twistcore and edge is free and not "twisted". However near the gangya the twistcore is becoming wider till the elephants at the gangya.
I attached an image to show better the two elephants.

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Maurice,

What ever the origins this is certainly a very very very rare example and I would suspect very very very desirable, to find two Elephants and twistcore, silver and ivory is something I would say could be unique.

Thank you for Sharing.

Gav

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Hi Maurice,

What ever the origins this is certainly a very very very rare example and I would suspect very very very desirable, to find two Elephants and twistcore, silver and ivory is something I would say could be unique.

Thank you for Sharing.

Gav

LOL, yes Gav, you are right!
Thank you very much!
Besides that it is very attractive, it is always a good thing to try to nail down the origin.

Morris ;-)

[David]

Well Maurice, you know where i stand on this since i was the one to encourage you post it here. José has picked up on some of the same things that swing me towards an Indonesian Sundang, namely the reprousse work which doesn't look Moro to me and the double kembang kacang which can be found on an Indonesian Dhapur. I will be interested to see what other opinions come in.
It certainly is an oddity though and a really nice find.

[Maurice]

Yes I know your vision about it David. Thanks for responding.
It seems that more people share your vision (according the many emails I receive about this piece).

The first thing that came in my mind when I saw this piece was that it could be from Borneo.
I didn't mention it here on the forum to see if more people came up with it.
I only did mention that to another forumite in a privat email and to the friend I got it from when I gave my first comment on it.
Yesterday I got an email from another friendcollector who said in an email that it could be Borneo (no, not dayak ;-) )?

Nobody has more suggestions or philosophies on this one?
I can't hardly believe it!

[ThePepperSkull]

just curious: Where in Indonesia did they produce sundang? This is a very interesting revelation, as I thought aside from Mindanao/sulu/borneo, the only other regions who produced them would be peninsular malaysia.

[Battara]

Well there are/were Moros or Moro influence in Sabah, Borneo.

[David]

Yes Maurice, i am also surprised that there aren't more opinions on this piece. Just for comparison look at the reprousse work on the sheath of this sundang which some have also identified as Malay. To my eyes i see a similar floral design that seems quite unlike Moro okir.
You can see the rest of this sword here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11708

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by David

Yes Maurice, i am also surprised that there aren't more opinions on this piece. Just for comparison look at the reprousse work on the sheath of this sundang which some have also identified as Malay. To my eyes i see a similar floral design that seems quite unlike Moro okir.
You can see the rest of this sword here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11708

Thanks for the link David.
I have seen it but had forgotten about it to check the floral design.
I indeed can see also some similarities, wo I know what you mean.
The one in the link is also a very nice and special one, with less reactions..

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

just curious: Where in Indonesia did they produce sundang? This is a very interesting revelation, as I thought aside from Mindanao/sulu/borneo, the only other regions who produced them would be peninsular malaysia.

That is a good question, anyone can answer this one specific and tell us where to find/read it?
I know that you can add Celebes to your enumeration according van Zonneveld.

[Mytribalworld]

Hi,

I don't think you'll find an answer for that. Don't forget that there was a lot of trade so its more likely that Moro blades and Malay blades where traded to Borneo dressed up in Borneo than that they where forgued locally.
All Borneo sunadangs I could find are most of Philippine and Malay origin.
If your keris is from Borneo than I think its somewhere from the direction in or around Brunei.

[David]

Originally Posted by Maurice

That is a good question, anyone can answer this one specific and tell us where to find/read it?
I know that you can add Celebes to your enumeration according van Zonneveld.

Many source cite Sulawesi/Celebes as the actual origin of the Sundang in general. Even if this is incorrect i think it is fair to say that that it can be added to the Peninsula as at least one place of origin for non-Moro Sundangs.

[Gustav]

Here an older thread about something inbetween kris and sepokal bugis: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3804

[Maurice]

Digging this old thread up, because I might have new information about the origin of the sundang.
According to an European keris collector, who lived several years in the kelantan state of Malaysia, the sundang originates from south Thailand / North east Malaysia.
According to him it looks like Lankasuka, regarding the blade, ganja and also the silverwork on the sleeve.

As I have no knowledge about the region we are talking here, I hope some of you know more and could confirm or discuss it?

Thank you in advance,
Maurice

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Digging this old thread up, because I might have new information about the origin of the sundang.
According to an European keris collector, who lived several years in the kelantan state of Malaysia, the sundang originates from south Thailand / North east Malaysia.
According to him it looks like Lankasuka, regarding the blade, ganja and also the silverwork on the sleeve.

As I have no knowledge about the region we are talking here, I hope some of you know more and could confirm or discuss it?

Thank you in advance,
Maurice

Hullo everybody!

My doea-benggol's worth .....

If you want to know about keris culture around the southern Thailand area, you may wish to contact Hj. Ismail Benjasmith or Abang Awang. I'm sure Malay forumites will be able to guide you there.

Best,

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo everybody!

My doea-benggol's worth .....

If you want to know about keris culture around the southern Thailand area, you may wish to contact Hj. Ismail Benjasmith or Abang Awang. I'm sure Malay forumites will be able to guide you there.

Best,

Thank you for the tip....

[Maurice]

I've got the feeling the origine of my kris will not be solved.
It seems that the most knowledgeable people who did study moro swords or Malay kerisses for a long, long time, don't agree with eachother.
Always nice when something "not usual" pops up.

I discussed it just the past days with a respected and well known dealer, who did also a lot of study on moro stuff.
He told me he had seen several moro krisses with repousse work, and he is almost 100% sure that this kris has all the classic moro features, according the pommel, and also the twistcore on the blade.
The double elephant hooks indeed are according to him unusual, but the gangja and the quality work is all moro.
Probably this is a rare variation of moro sword to him.

Thank you for discussing this piece, and if somebody finds some new information which will lead to the origine, please let me know.

Regards,
Maurice

[VANDOO]

MY GUT FEELING IS THE BLADE AND IVORY POMMEL MAY BE OF THE SAME AGE. THE SILVERWORK ON THE HANDLE AND SCABBARD MORE RECENT, THE SCABBARD LOOKS MORE RECENT TOO. THE OLDER SILVER WORK I HAVE SEEN ON ITEMS FROM MALAYSIA AND THE PHILIPPINES TEND TO HAVE A MORE PURE SILVER AND ARE USUALLY THINNER, WORN, CRACKED, BENT, DENTED ECT.
THE SEPARATE GANJA SEEMS TO HAVE THE STRAIGHT LINE FROM THE ORIGINAL ELEPHANTS TRUNK AND THEN IS CUT DOWN AT AN ANGLE AS USUAL. IT GOES INTO THE HOLE WHERE THE SECOND ELEPHANTS TRUNK IS LOCATED. IF SO THERE IS A BREAK IN THE OUTSIDE CARVING SO THE TWO PARTS DO NOT CONNECT TO COMPLETELY ENCLOSE THE SECOND ELEPHANTS TRUNK. IF THIS IS SO I THINK THE BLADE WAS ORIGINALLY MADE IN THE NORMAL MANNER. IT WAS LATER MODIFIED PERHAPS BY THE SWORDMAKER BUT MORE LIKELY AT THE BUYERS REQUEST FOR REASONS UNKNOWN. ITS UNFORTUNATE THE ORIGINAL HANDLE IS NOT PRESENT AS IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO HAVE SEEN HOW IT WAS ATTACHED ORIGINALLY. I LIKE THE ODD AND UNUSUAL SO WOULD BE HAPPY TO HAVE SUCH A SWORD IN MY COLLECTION

[CharlesS]

I'm with Battara and David...screams Malay to me, though Moro made or heavily influenced, save the hilt sleeve.

[Battara]

It was true that there was trade done between these areas.

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

MY GUT FEELING IS THE BLADE AND IVORY POMMEL MAY BE OF THE SAME AGE. THE SILVERWORK ON THE HANDLE AND SCABBARD MORE RECENT, THE SCABBARD LOOKS MORE RECENT TOO. THE OLDER SILVER WORK I HAVE SEEN ON ITEMS FROM MALAYSIA AND THE PHILIPPINES TEND TO HAVE A MORE PURE SILVER AND ARE USUALLY THINNER, WORN, CRACKED, BENT, DENTED ECT.
THE SEPARATE GANJA SEEMS TO HAVE THE STRAIGHT LINE FROM THE ORIGINAL ELEPHANTS TRUNK AND THEN IS CUT DOWN AT AN ANGLE AS USUAL. IT GOES INTO THE HOLE WHERE THE SECOND ELEPHANTS TRUNK IS LOCATED. IF SO THERE IS A BREAK IN THE OUTSIDE CARVING SO THE TWO PARTS DO NOT CONNECT TO COMPLETELY ENCLOSE THE SECOND ELEPHANTS TRUNK. IF THIS IS SO I THINK THE BLADE WAS ORIGINALLY MADE IN THE NORMAL MANNER. IT WAS LATER MODIFIED PERHAPS BY THE SWORDMAKER BUT MORE LIKELY AT THE BUYERS REQUEST FOR REASONS UNKNOWN. ITS UNFORTUNATE THE ORIGINAL HANDLE IS NOT PRESENT AS IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO HAVE SEEN HOW IT WAS ATTACHED ORIGINALLY. I LIKE THE ODD AND UNUSUAL SO WOULD BE HAPPY TO HAVE SUCH A SWORD IN MY COLLECTION

Hi Vandoo,

I don't think at all that the sleeve is a latter addition.
It shows great age in real (maybe the image is misleading for you?), is bent here and there, and also cracked on some places. It isn't that thick as you think, but the sleeve exist of layers of silverwork on top of eachother (decorated bands etc.), which looks like it is made of one thick piece of silver.
But it isn't...Look at the image I attached. You can see on of the band that is loose, and also you can see in the silverwork where the clamp went under the silverwork a long time ago (it is also seen on the other side, so it had two clamps in the past).

The silverwork on the scabbard I don't know and can't say, cause there is no scabbard to my piece... (probably you are mixing it up with a scabbard in this thread another member added).

Kind Regards,
Maurice

[VVV]

Interesting piece!

I go for Peninsular Malaysia too based on:

- the full silver collar.
- no clamp added.
- the "karna tinanding"-feature (which might be later) indicates that it comes more from a "keris" than "kris-culture",
where the owner would appreciate esoteric features like that.

Maurice, please take a closer look to see if you see any signs of the extra trunk being made later?

Michael

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by VVV

Interesting piece!

I go for Peninsular Malaysia too based on:

- the full silver collar.
- no clamp added.
- the "karna tinanding"-feature (which might be later) indicates that it comes more from a "keris" than "kris-culture",
where the owner would appreciate esoteric features like that.

Maurice, please take a closer look to see if you see any signs of the extra trunk being made later?

Michael

Michael, I gave the extra trunk a closer look.
It could be done later, but than it happened a long time ago, cause the patina is the same on the edges of the trunk as it is on the other side.

However I came to the conclusion that it probably is done after the two pieces of metal were allready connected to eachother. See yourself where the seperate line between those two are.
The trunk is made from the part of the blade, but a little piece of the "open circular shape" is part of the ganja....

One image I attached with a yellow line to mark the ganja line, to make it more clear...

Kind Regards,
Maurice

[Battara]

I don't think the other "trunk" was made later, but with all the evidence shown so far I am convinced it is not Moro but Indonesian or Malay. I also agree that it is a shame that it is missing the scabbard.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

To me, it appears to be a Soendang. However, I tend to place it as being from northern Kalimantan.

Best,

[Robert]

Hello Amuk, If you are right on its place of origin, what would the scabbard have looked like?

Robert

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Hello Amuk, If you are right on its place of origin, what would the scabbard have looked like?

Robert

Hullo Robert,

It's difficult to be objective, but I would be more inclined for the sheath to be of psuedo-Riau/Boegis type using any combination of wood, ivory and silver. It would not surprise me if the whole cross-piece were of ivory matching the pommel and the rest of the sheath either partially or totally covered in silverwork (blackened or not).
..... BTW ..... I have seen one Soendang in Kelantan with a similar-looking blade (only one trunk though). I was led to believe that what looked like a twist-core along the centre of the blade was actually a damascene pattern.
Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to inspect it closer. Apparently, the blade was referred to as 'Mata Djawa'. Anyway, it was a beautiful piece!

Best,

[Robert]

Hello Amuk and thank you for your thoughts on the possible scabbard design. As far as the one that you saw in Kelantan were you lucky enough to have gotten pictures of it ? Again my thanks.

Robert