Video, poison keris blade

[Pusaka]

At the end portion of this video (see link) on Silat they briefly speak about the keris. It mentions that some Malay keris blades have poisoned tips. I remember a Silat practitioner tell me that during battle keris blades were sometimes poisoned with frog poison (same poison used in other country’s to poison darts and arrow heads) Just wondering if anyone else had heard similar?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7BX3pNoOSGg

[Bill S]

The Dentrobatid frogs that are used for arrow poisons in South America do not occur in the Old World. And I'm not familiar with any other species that are used in the old world for such purposes. Certainly there are many plant poisons available, but I don't know of them being used on keris blades. I would not be surprised if there might be some residual arsenic from the traditional cleaning processes, but most likely only in small quantities. At a guess, I would think that the lack of a smooth, polished surface and the presence of residual, possibly decomposing aromatic plant oils plus incidental contaminations in a tropical environment could contribute to infections in a wound from a keris - and that this might be the source of the legends about poison blades.

[David]

I think the story, as described here, is very good television.

[David]

Pusaka, i know this is an interest of yours as i see that you have introduced this subject with other vidoes in this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=poison+keris
I am not really sure that this thread is going to bring up anything new on this topic, but i do urge all participants to read this old thread first for a better sense of what we have already discussed.

[A. G. Maisey]

I've got something about blade poisoning running around in the back of my memory. I cannot recall it in detail, I know I've got it somewhere in my references, but its years and years since I read it.

What I think is so is this:- concoctions made of various animal and vegetable ingredients were used as a blade soak, probably the principal ingredient was the sap of the upas tree; the sap of the upas tree is used as an arrow poison throughout maritime SE Asia, and I believe in the Malay Peninsula; upas sap acts on the heart and causes heart failure.

I will not vouch for any of this, as it is probably more than 20 years since I read it, and it is a subject that has only very slight interest for me, however, it might be enough to get somebody started on finding out exactly what the real situation is.

[Pusaka]

I remember reading about the upas tree back in my school days, the locals perpetuated the story that the tree was so poisonous that no other living thing, plant or otherwise could live within a few meters radius of the tree

I have seen blades poisoned in the Philippines but I am not convinced by the method used. They fry poisonous spiders and worms together and then add acid. The blade is then dipped in this mixture and is considered poisoned. The thing is many venoms are protein based. If you expose the venom to high temperatures surly it will breakdown the protein and render the venom harmless. I think the same with plant toxins. If they are used during the forging of the blade when it is red hot then surly it will destroy the toxin.

If as they say the toxin was added during the forging than perhaps its as simple as quenching the blade in a strong solution of arsenic.

I don’t think it is a common practice and perhaps it was only done during battles but I don’t think it impossible since this has been done in several cultures. I remember reading how in ancient Ireland a battle took place in which sword blades were treated with a plant toxin (probably monkshood) so that even the slightest cut would be fatal.

But yes a blade soaked whilst cool is much more probable, dangerous thing though

[Lew]

I have nicked myself once or twice on some keris and I am still here to talk about it . It makes a good story.



Lew

[A. G. Maisey]

There is no doubt that the sap of upas tree is very poisonous. I think that they used to give condemned criminals the job of going to collect it, as an alternative to execution. It was used as an arrow poison. I've just googleised "upas tree" and there's quite a bit there on it, which seems to more or less agree with what I can recall.
There is a poisonous frog in Jawa, but I don't know how poisonous, or if its poison was ever used on keris.
I personally think that it is possible that sometimes, some people may have applied poison to a keris blade before they entered a situation where they knew they would probably use the keris, but I have never heard of this as a general practice.

We can forget the arsenic as a blade poison. Arsenic does not work that way, and the tiny quantity that might be left on any blade would never do any damage anyway.

[PenangsangII]

The keris is dipped into poison solution called baceman (snake head pickles mixed with human faeces) just before battle or fight. So, the poison would still be working. In the Peninsula, keris is sometimes hardened by dipping the red hot blade into upas / poison solution. The effect if stabbed by it is still a mystery though......

[Bill S]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

The keris is dipped into poison solution called baceman (snake head pickles mixed with human faeces) just before battle or fight. So, the poison would still be working.

There are a few possible flaws in this theory. First, pickled snake heads would not be an effective poison. Snake venom would only be "still working" if the venom were extracted from the venom glands and put on the blade and used while still fresh. Pickling the heads does not do this. The human feces would definitely cause infection - but such infection would only set in days after a person was stabbed in battle and would not have any effect on the battlefield. And I've got doubts as to how many people keep jars of pickled snake heads and feces around the house.

This scenario also assumes that the keris was a battlefield weapon. I think there is plenty of support for its use as a weapon of personal defense/offense. But as a battlefield weapon it would fall short, and I'm not aware of its use in this context.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

The keris is dipped into poison solution called baceman (snake head pickles mixed with human faeces) just before battle or fight. So, the poison would still be working. In the Peninsula, keris is sometimes hardened by dipping the red hot blade into upas / poison solution. The effect if stabbed by it is still a mystery though......

The only part of that formula which would work is the upas toxin, however if you applied the toxin to a redhot blade then I'm not so sure the toxin would survive that.
As for the snake venom, it usually has to be stored in a fridge to survive so pickled snakes head would not do much.

Originally Posted by Bill S

This scenario also assumes that the keris was a battlefield weapon. I think there is plenty of support for its use as a weapon of personal defense/offense. But as a battlefield weapon it would fall short, and I'm not aware of its use in this context.

True, the keris is actually not a very good weapon, a sword would be far better. I think the Kris is an improvement on the Keris as a weapon.

[A. G. Maisey]

For many, many years we have heard it repeated that the keris is not a particularly effective weapon.

I would suggest that used in the way and situation in which it is intended to be used, it is in fact an extremely effective weapon.

Comparison of a keris to a sword is pointless, as both have a different purpose.

A guitar string is a very effective weapon.

So is an AK47.

But both have different methods of application, and are used for different purposes.

[David]

Thanks for your statements here Alan, i was about to pose a very similar response.
I properly wielded keris can be a very deadly weapon, at least as effective as any other edged weapon in it's size class. No, it's not a big slashing sword like the Moro kris, but in a tight space like a hallway the Indo keris would probably be much better choice. It's stealthier and quicker too. Really depends on the situation.

[PenangsangII]

I have similar points to that of Alan's & David's.

In fact, in a modern home, esp an apartment, keris would be perfect. In the case of SE Asia, Indo / Malay in particular, keris has a psychological effect beyond comprehension. Here, in Malay case, if somebody run towards me with a pedang or parang in his hand, I wouldnt be as afraid as if the assailant is armed with keris or badik.

Regarding the poison / venom theory, the keris is only dipped into poison when the fight or battle is impending, so the theory still holds water, I think

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

For many, many years we have heard it repeated that the keris is not a particularly effective weapon.

I would suggest that used in the way and situation in which it is intended to be used, it is in fact an extremely effective weapon.

Comparison of a keris to a sword is pointless, as both have a different purpose.

A guitar string is a very effective weapon.

So is an AK47.

But both have different methods of application, and are used for different purposes.

Not only a guitar string but also a thought can be a very effective weapon

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo Everybody,

Sorry for joining in late.
I can add a little to what others have said. Maybe someone can also take it from there.

When I was being 'traditionally socialized'(= Patilasan Karoehoen) in Tatar Soenda in the early 1950's, I was told various stories about how people put 'poison' on their weapons, depending on the purpose.
Anything from the poison from a scorpion, or from a tree frog, to the 'bodily fluids' produced by a cadaver just before it is cleaned for burial (and cocktails thereof).
If one needed something of a more 'supernatural' nature, one would need to supplement the poison by sticking the weapon in some holy/hallowed ground and meditating (focusing on the intent while mentally reciting mantras) uninterruptedly until completion.
Sometimes this would only need one night's ( dusk to dawn) meditation.

Of course there was the 'easy' way; just get a doekoen or expert to do it for you.

Best

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

If one needed something of a more 'supernatural' nature, one would need to supplement the poison by sticking the weapon in some holy/hallowed ground and meditating (focusing on the intent while mentally reciting mantras) uninterruptedly until completion.
Sometimes this would only need one night's ( dusk to dawn) meditation.

Sounds like Voodoo magic. Since we are on the subject of poisonous effects of the keris I guess it counts. Another way to use a keris in a similar way is to use mental focus/intention whilst pointing it at an opponents marma. There are 32 points which can be effected in such a way.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Sounds like Voodoo magic. Since we are on the subject of poisonous effects of the keris I guess it counts. Another way to use a keris in a similar way is to use mental focus/intention whilst pointing it at an opponents marma. There are 32 points which can be effected in such a way.

As one who has also spent a fair amount of time studying Caribbean Vodoun i will say that i have found quite of lot of similarities between magickal practices there with those of Bali. I can't say for other areas of Indonesia. It should be noted that these magickal practices, for the most part, take place within the framework of Vodoun culture, but outside the practice of the religion itself. But i digress....

[PenangsangII]

According to Malay belief, though not dipped into poison concoction, a fighting keris made by an empu, has already been imbued with magical properties.including "unseen poison".

[David]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

According to Malay belief, though not dipped into poison concoction, a fighting keris made by an empu, has already been imbued with magical properties.including "unseen poison".

Perhaps, but this is quite a different topic from the one we are discussion here.

[Bill S]

Originally Posted by David

Perhaps, but this is quite a different topic from the one we are discussion here.

Maybe not. If the "unseen poison" is an integral part of the keris folklore, it may well be the basis of stories about keris being dipped in poison. People who might be unwilling to accept the concept of metaphysical poisons may translate the idea into chemical poisons to put it into a realm they can accept.

[David]

Originally Posted by Bill S

Maybe not. If the "unseen poison" is an integral part of the keris folklore, it may well be the basis of stories about keris being dipped in poison. People who might be unwilling to accept the concept of metaphysical poisons may translate the idea into chemical poisons to put it into a realm they can accept.

You may have a good point here Bill. It does seem to me from all of the discussion that we have had on this subject that the practice of physically adding poison to the keris blade was not a general or universal one. This is not to say that no one has ever done it.

[Pusaka]

It works both ways, the Silat guru who told me about the frog poison used on keris blades said that the subsequent death of those cut by it was seen as magical and was interpreted by many as supernatural powers

[Bill S]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

... the Silat guru who told me about .....

I know close to nothing about Silat or Silat gurus, but perhaps Pusaka (or anyone else) could explain a little. In Japanese traditional martial arts there are recorded histories and descriptions of the techniques and traditions, even though these written records are not always accessible to outsiders. Is this true also of Silat? Would the use of poisons be documented somewhere? Or are these oral traditions, subject to change with each generation? Are there traditional schools of Silat (such as Yagyu school of swordsmanship, Ogasawara school of archery, etc.) or does each guru start his own school?

This is diverting a little from the original thread here, but I'm doing so to get an idea of how historically documentable the sources are for use of poisons.

[fearn]

Sorry for joining in late as well.

Couple of points:

a) while the arrow-poison frogs are indeed limited to the new world, poisons on toads are not. They are not as toxic as the arrow-poison (dendrobatid) frogs, but they can cause trouble. Or, if you're interested in an unpleasant trip, you can try "toad licking."

2) Cadavers and feces are pretty toxic, not because they have venoms, but because of bacteria. In a pre-antibiotic setting, in the tropics, septic wounds are bad.

iii) Since somebody brought up voodoo, we can also talk about the process of zombie-making, which involves poisoning people with a sublethal dose of tetrodotoxin from puffer fish. This is off-topic, but it is worth pointing out that a ritual/magical execution can have some sophisticated pharmacology associated with it.

Fortunately for us collectors, most of this gunk doesn't stay with the blades. I'd hate to have a poisoned blade lying around in a collection. I would be the person at most danger from it.

my 0.003 cents,

F

[Tim Simmons]

I can see no reason why a keris may not be made all the more lethal by the same methords, making a nick or small slash deadly.

lots more here.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1540610

Animals hit by a poison dart, irrespective of the part of the body that is pierced, start to twitch after a few seconds. This state lasts several minutes as the animal's condition worsens and convulsions occur. The animals lose consciousness at an accelerating rate. The throes of death last longer with large animals like wild boar or deer. Death is ultimately due to cardiac failure. The cardiac glycoside affects the Na+K+ATPase activity of the heart muscle membrane (Boer et al. 1999: 127

[A. G. Maisey]

The ipoh tree and the upas tree are the same tree.

Its upas in Jawa, ipoh in the Peninsula.

[fearn]

And just to top it off, the genus Strychnos is the source for the poison strychnine.

[Bill S]

The issue here isn't whether poisons exist - we all know they do and we could no doubt compile a very long list of poisons available to keris owners. The big question is whether there was a tradition of using them on the blades, and how common a tradition it was. So far I don't think anyone has shown that it happened beyond a very limited extent.

[David]

Originally Posted by Bill S

The issue here isn't whether poisons exist - we all know they do and we could no doubt compile a very long list of poisons available to keris owners. The big question is whether there was a tradition of using them on the blades, and how common a tradition it was. So far I don't think anyone has shown that it happened beyond a very limited extent.

Agreed.