Condition- What is acceptable???

G. McCormack · 27th February 2007, 06:01 AM

A question for all collectors. When you are buying swords, what condition problems do you consider 'ok'? Is it ok to have slight bends? What about, for example, a tulwar that has been put back in its hilt a little crooked? How do these things effect what you pay? Even if a sword looks great on the wall....when you sight down the blade it might look off....is this a problem for most collectors, or are these things considered alright?

not2sharp · 27th February 2007, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G. McCormack

A question for all collectors. When you are buying swords, what condition problems do you consider 'ok'? Is it ok to have slight bends? What about, for example, a tulwar that has been put back in its hilt a little crooked? How do these things effect what you pay? Even if a sword looks great on the wall....when you sight down the blade it might look off....is this a problem for most collectors, or are these things considered alright?

I prefer having the specimen in original condition; worn, damaged, bent, , what-have-you, but, indicative of how the thing originally was made rather then of some later attempt to restore its asthetic qualities.

These are historical artifacts which should be preserved, but, otherwise left alone.

n2s

FenrisWolf · 27th February 2007, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by not2sharp

I prefer having the specimen in original condition; worn, damaged, bent, , what-have-you, but, indicative of how the thing originally was made rather then of some later attempt to restore its asthetic qualities.

These are historical artifacts which should be preserved, but, otherwise left alone.

n2s

As a general rule of thumb I'd agree with you, so long as allowance is made for the unfortunately numerous exceptions to the rule. For example, I have two jambiyas with wootz blades, but the only way I discovered that was by etching them myself. Previous owners had polished them so heavily the wootz pattern was completely missing. In the second case the jambiya had been broken and shabbily repaired, so in order to preserve the dagger for future generations I had to separate the blade from the hilt, repair the hilt, and re-polish and etch the blade before reassembly. So, is correcting a shoddy, non-historical repair job tampering, or is it preserving an otherwise neglected piece?

I believe the majority of collectible pieces that come into our hands can be left alone, but there will always be those victims of neglect that need restoration in addition to preservation. After all, look at the difference between the photos taken at the opening of Tutenkhamen's tomb, and the items now on display in the museums. If the archaeologists who found King Tut can restore items to their former glory, why can't we?

Bill M · 27th February 2007, 03:58 PM

A highly personal question.

I have overcleaned and later felt badly.

I have tried to restore to what I thought the native culture would have wanted.

Now I lean toward stopping any active rust with some fine steel wool and WD-40, then a little more oil to stop rust from occuring again.

If the blade is slightly bent or warped I try to gently straighten it, but am concerned that if I might break something, I leave it alone.

Artifacts, I never change except a little glue if something is about to fall off.

G. McCormack · 27th February 2007, 06:14 PM

It does seem to be a very personal matter.
So what do you do if you buy a piece online, only to receive it and discover some flaw, like a bend in the blade, where do you draw the line as to, "Well, its a few hundred years old, so I'm ok with the fact that its a little warped/nicked/damaged" and "Uh oh, the seller didnt disclose this, and I dont like pieces that aren't more or less in their original state, plus patina"?

Rick · 27th February 2007, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G. McCormack

It does seem to be a very personal matter.
So what do you do if you buy a piece online, only to receive it and discover some flaw, like a bend in the blade, where do you draw the line as to, "Well, its a few hundred years old, so I'm ok with the fact that its a little warped/nicked/damaged" and "Uh oh, the seller didnt disclose this, and I dont like pieces that aren't more or less in their original state, plus patina"?

Well, there's online as in 'ebay' and there's online as in 'reputable dealer'.
Granted there are some reputable dealers on ebay; but aside from them the place is a crapshoot.
Most reputable dealers will take returns provided the complaint is not ridiculous or unless their country has restrictions on the import of edged weapons.
The best defense is to ask lots of questions and request more detailed or close up pictures of features you are doubtful about.

Where one 'draws the line' is a completely subjective area; there are no hard and fast rules.

Flavio · 27th February 2007, 06:52 PM

I completly agree with Bill and Rick: it's a personal question!! In general you can prefer a perfect piece, especially if the price is high, but you can also choose to buy pieces of a very low cost with a bad condition and try to restore it. Personally I try to purchase only pieces in a decent situation with a reasonable price, but also sometimes to buy a piece of rust will reserve some good surprises.

Bill M · 27th February 2007, 10:55 PM

One more thing. I NEVER use power tools like buffers on a blade. Several reasons.

1. It is very dangerous. You can catch the blade and hurt yourself.

2. I think it is bad for the metal. I don't know if this is true, but it seems to close up the pores in the metal. Hand sanding does not do this.

3. This is a very subjective thing, but I like the feeling of the metal when I clean it. I can sometimes feel things when I am hand cleaning or sanding a blade. It seems to respond; to communicate; to tell stories.

Many of our blades were battle weapons and were held by men (sometimes women) that were intensly involved. Life or death struggles. Maybe powerful ceremonies.

I feel that their intensity of emotion left an imprint on the weapon. Some pieces are said to have a "Jen" in them, put there by its maker. Another imprint.

Maybe I get a little metapyhsical, but I feel things when I hand polish a blade. I feel closer to the blade.

So here is my process. I take a blade and stop the active red rust. Then I get in a quiet place with it and begin with the very fine steel wool and WD-40 -- and I'll admit something here -- I like to do this by candle light and a little incense.

Then I slowly clean the blade from the hilt to the tip. I let the blade tell me what he wants. Super clean? A touch-up? Leave it alone?

That is how I decide --- now. Each blade is different and if you listen carefully enough each blade has a voice. The more I listen, the less they cut me.

Imagine that.

Alan62 · 8th March 2007, 05:19 AM

I buy the ones that ,for lack of a better term ,speak to me.
I would love it if they were all in perfect ,mint condition but I also love the really patinized ones as well as relics.
I have this one hanging on my wall next to others that are in very good condition and I am as proud of it as I am of my most minty one.

By the way Great question

Tim Simmons · 8th March 2007, 04:44 PM

I would agree with most of what has been said. I am a bit fussy when it comes to the item having a scabbard or not. It has to be very distinctive in form for me to accept no scabbard

.

I am really sorry but I am going to head off on a tangent but I am sure you will understand.

Alan62 could you please post a close up of that handle.

Bill M · 8th March 2007, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I would agree with most of what has been said. I am a bit fussy when it comes to the item having a scabbard or not. It has to be very distinctive in form for me to accept no scabbard

.

Tim,

To me, this very much depends on the item. I would not buy a Javanese, Balinese or peninsular keris without a scabbard. I think these go together since I consider them mostly as talismans and not primary battle weapons.

While I would like for everything, that ever had a scabbard to have one, I am ok with buying Moro kris without. I believe that since Moro kris were active battle weapons, often the scabbards were dropped when the fighting began and they never rejoined the blades.

Lew · 8th March 2007, 05:36 PM

[QUOTE=Bill Marsh]Tim,

To me, this very much depends on the item. I would not buy a Javanese, Balinese or peninsular keris without a scabbard. I think these go together since I consider them mostly as talismans and not primary battle weapons.

Bill

I would consider buying a keris without the scabbard granted the price is right. I'm more interested in the form of the forged blade and have picked up a few very nice truly old pieces for only a few dollars. Furniture on these keris blades are usually later add ons and not original to the blade plus I feel the spirit is in the steel blade and not the furniture. As far as condition goes I try to buy pieces that do not have too much damage to the blade and hilt rust is not a big problem for me as long as it has not eaten away the blade.

Lew

Bill M · 8th March 2007, 08:40 PM

I agree, Lew that the furniture or dress is not usually original to the dress. It can be changed several times during the lifetime of each owner. But iI have a problem getting good dress. If I make it myself, it will look like I did!

And somehow a naked Javanese keris laying in my case just looks wrong. The hilts are availiable, but the scabbards are hard to find.

Perhaps one day my woodworking skills will improve, or I'll get a contact who can make good dress.

But I would certainly not turn down a good blade because it had no dress, I would just prefer that it did.

I also agree with you that the blade is the most important part of any kris/kris.

tom hyle · 12th March 2007, 06:30 PM

Bends and twists to blades, which are as often caused during hardening as later during use or abuse, are traditionally of no note/existence on the antique market unless very extreme indeed. This used to frustrate me greatly, as my interest in swords was initially a purely martial arts/practical use one. Likewise, with a partial exception for Japanese swords, quality of temper is of no interest to the antique market.
Damage should be disclosed, but can vary greatly in detail; you can always ask for clarification of, say "rusty but solid"
Slight wiggle to a hilt can often pass un-noted (especially by nonexperts) as a similarly unimportant/expected detail; if there were no explicit claims of tight and sound or whatever, there's not much to say there.
Keep in mind that on ebay for instance, you are buying from persons often without expertise or INTEREST in the item or its field, so the line of ignorance vs. negligence is much harder to draw than with a dealer.
As for what I find acceptable conditionwise, I prefer that at least one other collector somewhere would consider an item "ruined, just ruined" before I buy it

27th February 2007, 06:01 AM	#1
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	Condition- What is acceptable??? A question for all collectors. When you are buying swords, what condition problems do you consider 'ok'? Is it ok to have slight bends? What about, for example, a tulwar that has been put back in its hilt a little crooked? How do these things effect what you pay? Even if a sword looks great on the wall....when you sight down the blade it might look off....is this a problem for most collectors, or are these things considered alright?

8th March 2007, 04:44 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I would agree with most of what has been said. I am a bit fussy when it comes to the item having a scabbard or not. It has to be very distinctive in form for me to accept no scabbard . I am really sorry but I am going to head off on a tangent but I am sure you will understand. Alan62 could you please post a close up of that handle. Attached Images

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27th February 2007, 03:58 PM	#4
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	A highly personal question. I have overcleaned and later felt badly. I have tried to restore to what I thought the native culture would have wanted. Now I lean toward stopping any active rust with some fine steel wool and WD-40, then a little more oil to stop rust from occuring again. If the blade is slightly bent or warped I try to gently straighten it, but am concerned that if I might break something, I leave it alone. Artifacts, I never change except a little glue if something is about to fall off.

27th February 2007, 06:14 PM	#5
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	It does seem to be a very personal matter. So what do you do if you buy a piece online, only to receive it and discover some flaw, like a bend in the blade, where do you draw the line as to, "Well, its a few hundred years old, so I'm ok with the fact that its a little warped/nicked/damaged" and "Uh oh, the seller didnt disclose this, and I dont like pieces that aren't more or less in their original state, plus patina"?

27th February 2007, 06:52 PM	#7
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	I completly agree with Bill and Rick: it's a personal question!! In general you can prefer a perfect piece, especially if the price is high, but you can also choose to buy pieces of a very low cost with a bad condition and try to restore it. Personally I try to purchase only pieces in a decent situation with a reasonable price, but also sometimes to buy a piece of rust will reserve some good surprises.

27th February 2007, 10:55 PM	#8
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	One more thing. I NEVER use power tools like buffers on a blade. Several reasons. 1. It is very dangerous. You can catch the blade and hurt yourself. 2. I think it is bad for the metal. I don't know if this is true, but it seems to close up the pores in the metal. Hand sanding does not do this. 3. This is a very subjective thing, but I like the feeling of the metal when I clean it. I can sometimes feel things when I am hand cleaning or sanding a blade. It seems to respond; to communicate; to tell stories. Many of our blades were battle weapons and were held by men (sometimes women) that were intensly involved. Life or death struggles. Maybe powerful ceremonies. I feel that their intensity of emotion left an imprint on the weapon. Some pieces are said to have a "Jen" in them, put there by its maker. Another imprint. Maybe I get a little metapyhsical, but I feel things when I hand polish a blade. I feel closer to the blade. So here is my process. I take a blade and stop the active red rust. Then I get in a quiet place with it and begin with the very fine steel wool and WD-40 -- and I'll admit something here -- I like to do this by candle light and a little incense. Then I slowly clean the blade from the hilt to the tip. I let the blade tell me what he wants. Super clean? A touch-up? Leave it alone? That is how I decide --- now. Each blade is different and if you listen carefully enough each blade has a voice. The more I listen, the less they cut me. Imagine that.

8th March 2007, 05:19 AM	#9
Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 164	I buy the ones that ,for lack of a better term ,speak to me. I would love it if they were all in perfect ,mint condition but I also love the really patinized ones as well as relics. I have this one hanging on my wall next to others that are in very good condition and I am as proud of it as I am of my most minty one. By the way Great question

8th March 2007, 05:36 PM	#12
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	[QUOTE=Bill Marsh]Tim, To me, this very much depends on the item. I would not buy a Javanese, Balinese or peninsular keris without a scabbard. I think these go together since I consider them mostly as talismans and not primary battle weapons. Bill I would consider buying a keris without the scabbard granted the price is right. I'm more interested in the form of the forged blade and have picked up a few very nice truly old pieces for only a few dollars. Furniture on these keris blades are usually later add ons and not original to the blade plus I feel the spirit is in the steel blade and not the furniture. As far as condition goes I try to buy pieces that do not have too much damage to the blade and hilt rust is not a big problem for me as long as it has not eaten away the blade. Lew

8th March 2007, 08:40 PM	#13
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I agree, Lew that the furniture or dress is not usually original to the dress. It can be changed several times during the lifetime of each owner. But iI have a problem getting good dress. If I make it myself, it will look like I did! And somehow a naked Javanese keris laying in my case just looks wrong. The hilts are availiable, but the scabbards are hard to find. Perhaps one day my woodworking skills will improve, or I'll get a contact who can make good dress. But I would certainly not turn down a good blade because it had no dress, I would just prefer that it did. I also agree with you that the blade is the most important part of any kris/kris.

12th March 2007, 06:30 PM	#14
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Bends and twists to blades, which are as often caused during hardening as later during use or abuse, are traditionally of no note/existence on the antique market unless very extreme indeed. This used to frustrate me greatly, as my interest in swords was initially a purely martial arts/practical use one. Likewise, with a partial exception for Japanese swords, quality of temper is of no interest to the antique market. Damage should be disclosed, but can vary greatly in detail; you can always ask for clarification of, say "rusty but solid" Slight wiggle to a hilt can often pass un-noted (especially by nonexperts) as a similarly unimportant/expected detail; if there were no explicit claims of tight and sound or whatever, there's not much to say there. Keep in mind that on ebay for instance, you are buying from persons often without expertise or INTEREST in the item or its field, so the line of ignorance vs. negligence is much harder to draw than with a dealer. As for what I find acceptable conditionwise, I prefer that at least one other collector somewhere would consider an item "ruined, just ruined" before I buy it