Thoughts on this lot from ebay

mross · 11th May 2006, 04:26 PM

This auction ended so I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the
swords presented. I was hoping myself or a list member would have won so a better look at the swords could be had by all.

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/...tem=6623920176

I'll be up front, I was hoping to win and then resell some of the stuff on ebay to defray the costs. I liked the two Kalis but my gut feeling is early 1900's. The Persian dagger sounded intresting. Would be nice if it was wootz, but the pictures where not that good. However that seemed to be in line with the other auctions this seller had. Botton line for me it was too much of a pig-in-a-poke to risk big bucks.

Ian · 11th May 2006, 05:29 PM

One of the kris looks to have an older style of blade, but as you say the pictures are terrible.

Overall, though, I'd say this buyer did very well with his/her purchases.

Ian.

mross · 11th May 2006, 06:00 PM

I agree, probably could not go wrong. My thoughts where the top kalis looks to have a older, possibly 19th century style blade. It is my understanding though that the horse hoof pommel was rare at that time. If they turn out to be Datu quality and 19th C. then the buyer has hit the lottery.

doecon · 11th May 2006, 06:17 PM

Auctionfloor bidder won this item. They probably had a much better view on the items then we had trough the ebay-stamp-sized version. If it would have been such a catch, makes one wonder why no other bidder at their location jumped in. Maybe you should be on their floor next time

Rick · 11th May 2006, 06:52 PM

Is that really a shotel in the mix ; or another form of African sword ?

Flavio · 11th May 2006, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Is that really a shotel in the mix ; or another form of African sword ?

Hello Rick. There is no shotel at all. Only the first from left in the lower row is a bandia-benge sword from north congo.

Rick · 11th May 2006, 07:36 PM

Thanks Flavio !
Any chance these swords would have been carried in the Mahdist Uprising ?
Just curious .

ariel · 11th May 2006, 07:42 PM

I always knew them as Mambele from the Azande tribe. In the most recent version of "Three feathers" Sudanese dervishes emerged from under the sand and attacked the Brits with these swords. I thought that was just Hollywood confusion. Any evidence that West or Central African Moslems participated in the Mahdi rebellion?

Tim Simmons · 11th May 2006, 08:06 PM

The Mahdi drew followers, vassals, slaves from all the surrounding regions with Islamic influence. There is mention and examples of pagan weapons made Islamic by the addition of Koranic verse in many books on African weapons. On the defeat of the Mahdi I wonder how many made there way back home, if they even new the way back or where home was. I suspect it was easier to put them in a uniform and call them the Sudan Rifles or something like that.

As for the remake of The Four Feathers which in my opinion was rubbish, the British had stopped wearing scarlet from 1879. I cannot imagine any Azande being more than auxiliaries.

Rick · 11th May 2006, 08:57 PM

Well , I guess you guys caught my drift with the questions .

The 1939 version IMO was far superior ; say , I wonder where all those prop kaskaras wound up !?

Maybe they weren't props .. hmmmm .

Flavio · 11th May 2006, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I always knew them as Mambele from the Azande tribe. In the most recent version of "Three feathers" Sudanese dervishes emerged from under the sand and attacked the Brits with these swords. I thought that was just Hollywood confusion. Any evidence that West or Central African Moslems participated in the Mahdi rebellion?

Hello Ariel. The azande swords are a little different and more rare: the point is wider and are less curved than the one on the ebay, that, to tell you the truth, i have watched wrong because this one isn't a Bandia-Benge as i have written, but a mongelima kondo (TRIBAL ARTS vol I/n1, pag 58). In the film "The Four Feathers", the last one, some dervishes carry in hand some swords that are very similar to those of the Bandia-Benge (mambeli).

picture 1: group of Mongelima kondo
picture 2: group of bandia benge mambeli
picture 3: two azande sword

ariel · 11th May 2006, 11:55 PM

And, of course, I missed one feather...

Just tells you how concentrated I was on this movie...

Spunjer · 12th May 2006, 03:09 PM

here are close ups of the krisses

http://www.historicamericana.com/pas...p?ItemId=35303

Ian · 12th May 2006, 05:24 PM

Thanks Ron. The close ups help a lot. The top kris certainly seems to be an older form, possibly 18th C. if we believe Cato's classification. At one time this had a larger pommel, perhaps junggayan, that has been lost. This sword would take some time to restore but it is probably fairly valuable as an older example. The other appears to have a small ivory kakatua and also would need some restoration IMO. Again, quite a valuable example.

Even with the costs of restoration work, the purchaser could probably recoup most of his/her investment by restoring and selling these two swords.

Ian.

Spunjer · 13th May 2006, 03:30 AM

you're welcome, ian. the older kris appears to have a twisted core...

Mapico1 · 14th May 2006, 09:30 PM

Hi,sword left bottom is indeed a Bengé sword from N-Congo,middle one is Tsjokwé from Congo,border with Angola,top one is a Fang sword from Gabon.
From what I can see on the small images all appear to be period 1900-1920.
Regards,Danny

mross · 15th May 2006, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Thanks Ron. The close ups help a lot. The top kris certainly seems to be an older form, possibly 18th C. if we believe Cato's classification. At one time this had a larger pommel, perhaps junggayan, that has been lost. This sword would take some time to restore but it is probably fairly valuable as an older example. The other appears to have a small ivory kakatua and also would need some restoration IMO. Again, quite a valuable example.

Even with the costs of restoration work, the purchaser could probably recoup most of his/her investment by restoring and selling these two swords.

Ian.

They do help. I tried to find close ups of these before the auction but was unable to. Ron where did you find them? If I had seen these photos, I would have gone higher. Less of a pig-in-a-poke. Of course I would have kept the kalis and sold the other stuff.

Spunjer · 16th May 2006, 12:55 AM

lol, i was the first bidder on the lot. i asked the seller and he gave me the link. what prompt me from going higher was the fact that i had my sights set on something else at that time.

11th May 2006, 04:26 PM	#1
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Thoughts on this lot from ebay This auction ended so I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the swords presented. I was hoping myself or a list member would have won so a better look at the swords could be had by all. http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/...tem=6623920176 I'll be up front, I was hoping to win and then resell some of the stuff on ebay to defray the costs. I liked the two Kalis but my gut feeling is early 1900's. The Persian dagger sounded intresting. Would be nice if it was wootz, but the pictures where not that good. However that seemed to be in line with the other auctions this seller had. Botton line for me it was too much of a pig-in-a-poke to risk big bucks.

11th May 2006, 05:29 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Hard to comment with poor pictures One of the kris looks to have an older style of blade, but as you say the pictures are terrible. Overall, though, I'd say this buyer did very well with his/her purchases. Ian.

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11th May 2006, 06:00 PM	#3
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	I agree, probably could not go wrong. My thoughts where the top kalis looks to have a older, possibly 19th century style blade. It is my understanding though that the horse hoof pommel was rare at that time. If they turn out to be Datu quality and 19th C. then the buyer has hit the lottery.

11th May 2006, 06:17 PM	#4
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Auctionfloor bidder won this item. They probably had a much better view on the items then we had trough the ebay-stamp-sized version. If it would have been such a catch, makes one wonder why no other bidder at their location jumped in. Maybe you should be on their floor next time

11th May 2006, 06:52 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Is that really a shotel in the mix ; or another form of African sword ?

11th May 2006, 07:36 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Thanks Flavio ! Any chance these swords would have been carried in the Mahdist Uprising ? Just curious .

11th May 2006, 07:42 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I always knew them as Mambele from the Azande tribe. In the most recent version of "Three feathers" Sudanese dervishes emerged from under the sand and attacked the Brits with these swords. I thought that was just Hollywood confusion. Any evidence that West or Central African Moslems participated in the Mahdi rebellion?

11th May 2006, 08:06 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	The Mahdi drew followers, vassals, slaves from all the surrounding regions with Islamic influence. There is mention and examples of pagan weapons made Islamic by the addition of Koranic verse in many books on African weapons. On the defeat of the Mahdi I wonder how many made there way back home, if they even new the way back or where home was. I suspect it was easier to put them in a uniform and call them the Sudan Rifles or something like that. As for the remake of The Four Feathers which in my opinion was rubbish, the British had stopped wearing scarlet from 1879. I cannot imagine any Azande being more than auxiliaries.

11th May 2006, 08:57 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Well , I guess you guys caught my drift with the questions . The 1939 version IMO was far superior ; say , I wonder where all those prop kaskaras wound up !? Maybe they weren't props .. hmmmm .

11th May 2006, 11:55 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And, of course, I missed one feather... Just tells you how concentrated I was on this movie...

12th May 2006, 03:09 PM	#13
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	here are close ups of the krisses http://www.historicamericana.com/pas...p?ItemId=35303

12th May 2006, 05:24 PM	#14
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Thanks Ron. The close ups help a lot. The top kris certainly seems to be an older form, possibly 18th C. if we believe Cato's classification. At one time this had a larger pommel, perhaps junggayan, that has been lost. This sword would take some time to restore but it is probably fairly valuable as an older example. The other appears to have a small ivory kakatua and also would need some restoration IMO. Again, quite a valuable example. Even with the costs of restoration work, the purchaser could probably recoup most of his/her investment by restoring and selling these two swords. Ian.

13th May 2006, 03:30 AM	#15
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	you're welcome, ian. the older kris appears to have a twisted core...

14th May 2006, 09:30 PM	#16
Mapico1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 86	Hi,sword left bottom is indeed a Bengé sword from N-Congo,middle one is Tsjokwé from Congo,border with Angola,top one is a Fang sword from Gabon. From what I can see on the small images all appear to be period 1900-1920. Regards,Danny

16th May 2006, 12:55 AM	#18
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	lol, i was the first bidder on the lot. i asked the seller and he gave me the link. what prompt me from going higher was the fact that i had my sights set on something else at that time.