10th December 2017, 07:08 PM | #1 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 408
|
Name of tow Batak Knives
Hello,
I recently acquired these two Batak knives which I don't know either the name or the function. The first has a handle similar to some Lopah Petawaran seen on the internet but the blade is much simpler. The second one has a blade very close to the Lopah Petawaran but the handle and the sheath don't look like what I saw elsewhere. Both knives were collected by the same person before 1941. How would you name these knives? First knife : Blade length : 16cm Handle in Saro (Capricornis sumatraensis) horn with silver No scabbard. Second knife : Blade length : 23,6cm Handle in buffalo horn and brass. Scabbard in wood, deer horn, bone and silver. Last edited by Athanase; 11th December 2017 at 06:48 AM. |
11th December 2017, 08:57 AM | #2 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
|
Hello Athanase,
I think you have there two legitimate Lopah Petawaran, both a little bit unusual but I think they are both members of this rare knives. I nearly bid byself to the one with the face on the handle. Congrats! See also this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=Petawaran Regards, Detlef |
11th December 2017, 10:12 PM | #3 | ||
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,254
|
Hello Séverin,
Quote:
OTOH, it seems very likely that these had the same ceremonial use as the typical lopah petawaran. Quote:
The hilt and scabbard are not traditional and obviously later replacements. These look like 20th century work while the blade looks much older... Regards, Kai |
||
11th December 2017, 11:01 PM | #4 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 408
|
Thanks a lot for your answers.
I'm waiting for a much more typical Lopah Petawaran that should arrive in a week or two. I would try to make the photos in the week. |
12th December 2017, 06:51 PM | #5 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
|
Quote:
Lucky you! |
|
13th December 2017, 09:20 PM | #6 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 408
|
Quote:
|
|
26th December 2017, 11:39 PM | #7 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,254
|
Hello Séverin,
Quote:
BTW, please do post pics of the additional LP once it arrives! Regards, Kai |
|
28th December 2017, 12:01 PM | #8 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 408
|
Hello,
The sheath and the handle would be made for the tourism market? As the set dates from before 1941 it would therefore be among the first production for tourists? This is my new Lopah Petawaran. It is more traditional in its form, but the blade seems more recent (there are fine decorations incised on the blade which are eroded therefore difficult to see). The base and the tip of the handle was to be covered with silver but these decorations have unfortunately disappeared. It's not a masterpiece but it was in my budget ... |
28th December 2017, 03:24 PM | #9 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
|
Quote:
I would hesitate to remove the hilt and scabbard mounts only because they don't fit the norm. Regards, Detlef |
|
28th December 2017, 03:27 PM | #10 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
|
Quote:
|
|
28th December 2017, 04:23 PM | #11 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 408
|
It's buffalo horn.
|
28th December 2017, 04:32 PM | #12 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 408
|
Quote:
So I would not risk changing the clothing of the blade. |
|
28th December 2017, 05:51 PM | #13 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,254
|
Hello Séverin,
Quote:
Blade is genuine and old, certainly well into the 19th century. The remnants of the engraving are traditional and suggest that this blade is a high-end piece (or at least quality is well above average!). The horn hilt also looks genuine. Are there any marks left of (now missing) metal rings? From the looks of the ensemble, rings of silver (and possibly suasa) might be expected; however, unless there is clear evidence of them missing, I'd not necessarily speak of any missing rings and also would not replace any... The horn hilt clearly has age. I might consider cleaning the tang and refixing the hilt; there seems to have been some shrinkage of the horn and a rusting tang may continue to crack the horn - thus, some TLC may help this piece to survive with as little further damage as possible. How well does the scabbard fit the blade? It's of nice quality and of a known style. Was there anything of note written on the tag? Regards, Kai |
|
28th December 2017, 05:59 PM | #14 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,254
|
Hello Séverin,
Quote:
I believe to strip all fittings and display the nekkid blade next to your latest example might be a valid (and arguably sensible) option though. Regards, Kai |
|
28th December 2017, 06:37 PM | #15 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,254
|
Hello Séverin,
Quote:
Already during the second half of the 19th century, burgeoning tourist destinations (and associated souvenir/curio market opportunities) developed in Toba and later Karo lands. By the last quarter of the 19th century, Chinese-run workshops in Medan produced (or at least Chinese traders ordered) new pseudo-Batak artifacts in considerable numbers! These were never intended for traditional use and sold to colonial officials, European/American businessmen (including plantation owners/etc.), and visitors. The motifs try to look "Batak" but usually fall short of the real thing and often exhibit cross-cultural influences. I do believe it is fair to tag these as tourist pieces... Because quite a few of these souvenirs are already over 100 years old themselves, collecting Batak is a quagmire! Regards, Kai |
|
28th December 2017, 09:42 PM | #16 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 408
|
Quote:
The tang is not rusty and there is resin residue inside the handle. The fitting between scabbard and blade is good but not perfect. |
|
29th December 2017, 12:51 AM | #17 | ||
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,254
|
Hello Séverin,
Quote:
The tang looks robust and it is possible that stable and active rust are relatively thin. How wide is the gap? 3-4 mm? There may be a single "crown" missing here (usually made of suasa)! Quote:
Congrats, looks like a nice, genuine ensemble! Regards, Kai Last edited by kai; 29th December 2017 at 12:58 AM. Reason: fixing quotes |
||
29th December 2017, 12:55 AM | #18 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,254
|
Hello Séverin,
Quote:
Regards, Kai |
|
29th December 2017, 12:57 PM | #19 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 408
|
Sorry, I had forgotten this question.
On the label he was just noted the seller's inventory numbers. |
29th December 2017, 07:58 PM | #20 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
|
Quote:
I wouldn't try to advice someone to strip all fittings from a knife by looking at a picture on a pc screen and without handling the piece in question. What I can see on the pictures is that the handle collar look very well patinated and the horn pommel show as well use. But I may be wrong!? Regards, Detlef |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|