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#1 |
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These are two Indian daggers that I think are vintage. They are different styles, and made at different times, but they share some common traits. E. Jaiwant Paul, in his book "Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India" discusses a decoration technique named Bidri. I am wondering if that is what these two are?
Harry |
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#2 |
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This time with the photos. I hope!
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#3 |
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First of all, these daggers both look like later work to me.
Secondly, I believe bidri work is a form of what is also called koftgari. |
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#4 |
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Hi Harry,
Yes, they are very recent low Indian production. You have plenty on epray. In the 1970ties they had big factories around Mombay, now they have some to the North too. Bidri work is different from koftgari. What we can see here is a low quality koftgari: they apply silver decoration on cold metal. Mostly like a painting, normaly the koftgari should be stuck to etched metal. In the bidri work, they cover the designs and parts that they want to let in silver. Normally covered with clay, then they put the piece in an oven. The non-protected parts will become black. The protected parts will be uncovered later and will stay bright shinny silver. I hope that I'm understandable... ![]() |
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#5 |
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Thanks guys. I have seen some of the "vintage" work coming from India, and neither of these fit into that category. The one with the cat's head pommel has been in the posession of a Polish collector who I have bought from several times before. The other was part of an estate sale on Cape Cod. Supposedly it's previous owner bought it on a trip there in the 1930s. I believe it.
Battara, the silver work is damascene, or koftgari, if you prefer. Bidri is a technique used to blacken steel. Kubur, you may be right about that not being Bidri, but the steel has definately been blackened in some way. The koftgari is quite good. It stands slightly proud on the both pieces, except for the band around the neck of the one with the cat's head pommel, which is not proud, but flush with the steel. Harry |
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#6 |
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Kubur is correct on both age and technique observations. These are recent decorative, aka tourist items.
The "blackening" in Bidri work is not related to dark/black background on coftgari. These are different techniques and methods. Harry, These daggers are exactly like those you referred to as "vintage work coming from India", and quality of coftgari or technique has nothing to do with it. Do you believe they're 1930's based on previous owner's words alone or do you have at least one reputable reference to a similar item being described as such? |
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#7 | |
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Yes. I am asserting that these were both made first half 20th. I make this assertion based on having examined them, and quite a few of the more modern imitations. Harry |
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#8 |
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Here is what the recent Idian daggers look like. It is a completely different animal.
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#9 |
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Yes they are different of course, but there was reason when I mentioned: "the quality or technique has nothing to do with it". They are still of the same time period, perhaps +/- 10-20 years but that is irrelevant.
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#11 | |
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I don't know much about Indian weapons nor I know about the technics but let me ask this question: Why you post it for discussion when you don't have an interest in arguing? Regards, Detlef |
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#12 | |
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If I wanted to fight I would join the military. I'm interested in civil discussion, and in the opinions of experienced collectors. That doesn't mean I will believe everything I am told. This is especially true for items I own, that I can pick up, turn over and examine with magnification. Harry |
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Do the scabbards have a wooden core or are they hollow? If they do have a wooden core would you mind taking a picture of it.
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#15 |
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Thank you folks for correcting me.
It would seem that there are perhaps two different periods for the Indian modern work....... And I agree......let's keep this civil - thank you. ![]() |
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#17 | |
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My apologies if I have offended. |
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#19 |
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Harry,
Bidri work involves the carving/chiseling of surfaces as does Zar Buland. My understanding is the Bidri applications are finished flush with the surface of the object and the Zar Buland is raised well above the surface. Edit note, Koftgari is something again just so there is no confusion. Indian Art in Delhi, 1903 by George Watt explains the many different varieties of each. Gavin Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 16th October 2015 at 11:27 AM. |
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#20 | |
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It seems your version of "civil discussion" is to hear the "opinions of experienced collectors" only if it agrees with yours. You're seeking to confirm production date, but switching to comparing quality to leverage your point. Comparing quality is fundamental mistake when determining the age. it goes beyond that, and this is my point. In this example, there is no need to look further than the shiny clean velvet at the scabbards' throat. I am not even going to comment on the blade "looking like" wootz. You need to study the books, not the auction site, and get enough practical experience to know the difference. |
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#21 |
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Without getting too involved in the age factor, I have specifically refrained from pointing anyone to any one commercial manufacturers site, but instead have provided the Google image search which outlines the type discussed if further delving wishes to be done.
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=i...X9QVb&dpr=1.75 Gavin |
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#22 |
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Thanks Gavin (and others). That is helpful. For the record. I am the one that asserted these were first half 20th, not the sellers. So I have no hard feeling if they are more recent, as has been suggested. My Polish friend sold me the one with the cat pommel. He dates that one to the 1990s. I honestly don't care. The age of an item is not that important to me. I am mostly interested in Islamic and Oriental bladed weapons and the basic design of many of these weapons has not changed in eons. For insurance purposes I will date the cat pommel to the 1990s and the other to the 70s.
I have to say that this entire discussion has left a sour taste in my mouth. This site is a great resource for collectors, but I will consider carefully before I post here again. Sincerely, Harry |
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#23 | |
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I had the same problem in the past, with one or two objects. Some comments were right, some were completely wrong. It is a forum of connoisseurs, no more, but even specialists can be wrong. Second point, why dissociate local users objects and travelers or tourists objects? Most of our objects are from the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th c. There were few tourists and travellers, not like now. It's clear that the craftmen who did these objects were very skilled and with a deep knowledge. They probably worked for both wealthy local elite and rich travellers. Or even the objects were produced to satisfy both local and travellers. No one can say! I just know that nowadays the techniques are lost or almost and objects for tourists are of a very low quality if not made in China!! My comments can be applied to daggers as Qajar axes and other objets from the end of the 19th c. The most important is your own feeling. It's not important if these daggers are from the mid-20th c. Kind regards, Kubur |
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#24 | |
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Admins - please cancel my account on this site. I am finished here. Thank you. Sincerely, Harry Wagner |
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#25 |
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Harry, I am sorry you feel this way, but it is you who made a decision, not me. You're missing the point and taking it personally and this is not good way to learn.
Last edited by ALEX; 16th October 2015 at 06:03 PM. |
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#26 |
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Alex I agree with you about litterature and books.
I dont agree with you about the term "to learn". Harry is not a student and you are not a specialist and even if you or me were specialists. I don't like members who patronise new members. To be new members doesnt mean that they are new collectors, and even if they were, i dont think that is a problem. Harry I don't feel that i belong to a club, i just share objects and knowledge with some very nice guys on this forum. You shouldnt leave this forum. |
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#27 | |
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I think you understand me wrong. I don't want to suggest a fight but a discussion. When you are certain with your opinion show why. I don't want to attack you with my post. But when I am positive about something I try to explain why. Best regards, Detlef |
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#28 |
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Kubur, I agree. It is ok to just enjoy and discuss the items, not everyone needs to learn or study them. But specific question was posted about age and quality, and this is what I commented on. Are we here to please each other and become a Facebook community with only "Like" option, or provide true and constructive feedback? I see this Forum is becoming FB-ish, so this is what "ticked" me. I apologize for being harsh, and also think Harry should not leave.
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#29 | |
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I really think that is the wrong way, sorry. Please don't leave this forum. So far I can judge it is Alex a member with a good knowledge about Indian weapons and he has only given his opinion about your both daggers. Show him why you disagree with his opinion. Best regards, Detlef |
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#30 | |
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I have followed this thread with interest as I have a few pieces with similar decoration to yours and am amazed at how the discussion has ended. I really think that you have over reacted as there was nothing said by any of the participants, in my opinion, to provoke you into such a reaction. If it is not to late I would urge you to reconsider as I think by leaving the forum you will be the loser and for what? Hoping that you will reconsider. Miguel |
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