Just Ended On Epray ????

[Robert]

Listed as a Moro panabas I would like others opinions on this piece. I know that I have seen a hilt like this on another item listed earlier on the forum but I can't for the life of me find it now. The total length of this is approximately 27 inches with a blade of almost 16 inches in length. Hilt is of banati wood with a silver alloy ferrule and bone end cap. There was not much more information listed on it. Pictures are from the auction. Your thoughts on origin and age would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Robert

[Royston]

Robert

I think this is Thai.

Regards
Roy

[Sajen]

Hi Robert,

I have followed the auction and know the seller. He stated that the panabas is old but I have my doubts by the fittings. When I am you I would contact the seller and ask him about this. He selling most of the time very nice worked recent kris, kampilan and kris handle. Since he stated that the panabas is old I suppose that the blade is an old one with new fittings. From the pictures it look like this, sorry. Still a nice catch by this price.

Regards,

Detlef

[Nathaniel]

I vote Philipine blade as well. There is no Thai blade of that style. There are some large southern Thai sickle style blades with turned handles almost similar but they are ethnic Malay and do not have long ferrules.

[Battara]

The piece is a Moro panabas. The style is Moro and the okir decoration is Moro, perhaps Sulu.

[Robert]

I would like to thank everyone who have commented so far for their help and interest.
Jose, thank you for confirming that it is Moro and its possible place of origin as Sulu.
I know that I have seen another piece with a hilt like this posted somewhere here on the forum of possibly on another forum or sales site. It matches this hilt down to the end cap with small "ivory" knob on the end. If anyone knows of this post and photo, please post a link or contact by PM if it is on a sales site.
Detlef, the seller states that in his opinion this is an old piece and all parts are original to it. For the price paid I thought it would be worth the risk to be able to add it to my collection. If anyone else can add to what has already been said or have any other comments on this they would be greatly appreciated. Thank you all again.

Regards,
Robert

[Battara]

I do have to admit, however, the style of blade is not typical of what I have seen as old and traditional. However, it does look Moro for sure.

[Robert]

Hello Jose and again I thank you for your continued interest and comments on this unusual piece. I read somewhere that this is an older style of blade and is supposed to represent a crocodile viewed from the side with its eyes just above the water line. I just wish that I could remember where it was that I read it so I could post the source. As for the actual age of this piece I am quite sure you are a much better judge on that than I am.

Regards,
Robert

[CharlesS]

The okir decoration may be correct, but I am not sure that it is old. I am certain that the wooden hilt is a newer restoration.

The seller of this piece is quite aware of the value of an older pananbas, and based on what he was asking for this one, I think it was an acknowledgement that something was "off".

[Battara]

Good point Charles about the hilt.

[Robert]

Hello CharlesS and thank you for your comments and opinion on this piece. I have been in correspondence with Charles "the seller of this item" and he states that he believes that it is all original, he will only say that it is "vintage or earlier" as far as age is concerned but bases this on the fact that the blade is of folded steel construction while in his words the "newer ones are made from melted coil springs while most are made from flimsy metals made for tourist." He also states that the hilt is hand made and not lathe turned and that the "grains of the handle is fine due to continued use." As you say, the hilt quite possibly could be a newer restoration but from what time frame and what would be your opinion on the age of the blade itself? Regardless of the outcome I believe that for what was paid it is still quite an interesting piece.

Regards,
Robert

[Battara]

I have been thinking about this blade shape ever since I saw this post. I have seen others but they were either newly made or recently modified.

Could this be a unique form found only in the Sulu regions?

More research is required.

[Gustav]

Pitting on the blade looks rather strange to me.

Is this how banati wood looks like? Tiger striped pieces used for Kakatua do have quite a different look.Yet perhaps it just isn't a root piece?

Only the knob of the ivory (?) end piece looks old to me.

[Robert]

Hello Gustav, and thank you for commenting on this. The pitting on the blade looks pretty standard to me though the blade does look like it has been cleaned before and not oiled or waxed and has started to develop rust again. The wooden hilt though not burl "a root piece" does look like banti to me. As for the butt cap, the seller indicated in his description that it was buffalo horn though the small knob at the end looks more like some type of ivory to me and is very possible that I am totally wrong about its composition. Hopefully many of the questions about this can be better answered after it arrives. Again my thanks for your interest.

Regards,
Robert

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

The okir decoration may be correct, but I am not sure that it is old. I am certain that the wooden hilt is a newer restoration.

The seller of this piece is quite aware of the value of an older pananbas, and based on what he was asking for this one, I think it was an acknowledgement that something was "off".

Agree at this point, the handle look still rather recent to my eyes. I miss signs of patination.

[T. Koch]

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

.... As for the butt cap, the seller indicated in his description that it was buffalo horn though the small knob at the end looks more like some type of ivory to me and is very possible that I am totally wrong about its composition.

Regards,
Robert

Hi Robert and thank you for sharing your new joy! The end cap is not made from horn at all. The very tip or 'nipple' certainly looks to be elephant ivory. The white disc itself, is not so easily identifiable, but from the dense look of it, I'd estimate it to be ivory too, although it also could be bone. If you could get some macro's of it, I should be able to tell for sure.

*All you veterans*: Regarding the fittings looking new - how on earth do you tell? Or is it one of those things that come with experience and handling? I am asking because, to my naive eyes, the silver ferrule looks to be, what I would think is genuinely worn, with the pattern partially erased over time? Has this been artificially worn then?

I might soon be looking to buy my first barung, so it would be very nice to know before then!


All the best, - Thor

[Robert]

Hello Thor and thank you for contributing to this discussion and in particular the ivory/bone end cap. I was pretty sure that the knob part of it was some kind of ivory but the pictures of the cap itself are to indistinct to tell what the main disc part is made of. I also think that the lighting used when the photos were taken was so harsh "as well as possibly some over zealous cleaning" that it caused the wood graining to show extremely well but washed away any trace of patina in the photos that might be present on the hilt itself. I agree that the silver ferrule seems to show honest wear caused by years of handling and do not believe that it was artificially worn. Other old examples of panabas with this blade style exist so I do not believe this to be an item that was made to deceive but just a rare form. I have also seen a hilt of this form before but cannot for the life of me remember where it was that I saw it. Then again another option is that I could be totally wrong about all of this and it could be just a put together piece made of older parts with a newer wooden hilt. As I said earlier, hopefully many of the questions about this can be better answered after it arrives and can be carefully inspected.

Regards,
Robert

[Rick]

Hi Robert,
The example I pointed you to was listed as 20th century .
Speaking only for myself; I am uncomfortable with this blade form .

I would think I should have seen more old examples; this is such a departure from the panabas forms that I am familiar with .

[Robert]

Hello Rick, thank you for your help and welcome to the "what have I gotten myself into now" thread. Including this one and the one that you pointed out I have now seen 4 examples of panabas with this style of blade. This is the only one with this particular style hilt although one did have a plain round handle while the other two had the more traditional faceted style of hilt carving. One other thing that I do remember about the others is that all of them were said to date to the first thirty or so years of the twentieth century. This one, who knows. It could have been made last month for all I know about it. I have spent the last more than few hours searching the forum and internet for pictures of panabas and while I have not located any more with this style of blade I was quite fascinated to find out how many different blade and hilt styles there actually are. I still cannot locate the reference source where I read about this blade shape and what it is supposed to represent or the picture of the other hilt similar to this but I am still looking. Again, thank you for your help and opinions on this.

Regards,
Robert