Shamshir dating? Part 2

[elfina]

Some additional photos of the shamshir:

[A.alnakkas]

Hey Elfina,

The hilt work is Syrian, not that old, 70 years at best but it could be as recent as the last decade.

Am not sure about the blade, it looks like a repro of Assad Allah trade blades, its not wootz looks like pattern weld. The features makes me think its recent but I cannot be sure, maybe one of the senior members here can help.

Its a good piece none the less, if I had one like it I'll display it with pride with my other stuff :-)

[RSWORD]

My opinion is that this is a transcaucasian sword with a blade in the Persian trade blade style and would date to the mid to late 19th century. The segmented fullers, the wide middle fuller and of course the two cartouche are reminiscent of Persian trade blades which can be found in a variety of blade shapes, quality of chiseling, etc. If you do a search function for Persian trade blade you probably will find several other threads about the genre. The size of the blade and the fact it is a pattern welded steel and the decoration on the crossguard all point in my opinion towards the Caucasus. Given its overall length perhaps a horseman's saber as opposed to an executioner's sword. A nice sword and would be happy if you shared other shamshir in your collection.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

My opinion is that this is a transcaucasian sword with a blade in the Persian trade blade style and would date to the mid to late 19th century. The segmented fullers, the wide middle fuller and of course the two cartouche are reminiscent of Persian trade blades which can be found in a variety of blade shapes, quality of chiseling, etc. If you do a search function for Persian trade blade you probably will find several other threads about the genre. The size of the blade and the fact it is a pattern welded steel and the decoration on the crossguard all point in my opinion towards the Caucasus. Given its overall length perhaps a horseman's saber as opposed to an executioner's sword. A nice sword and would be happy if you shared other shamshir in your collection.

Decoration on the crossguard is Syrian, they use several patterns, sometimes circles or triangles etc. They still make these there and sometimes you get to see authentic wootz shamshirs with such refurbishment, I believe you own/owned some aswell :P

Syrian bladesmiths are good and they can make pattern welded blades, so unless there are more examples of old Persian trade blades that are pattern welded rather then wootz then this could be as old as 19th century.

[elfina]

Thank you both for your comments! I learned a lot, although I must confess I'm disappointed as I thought the sword, together with the hilt, was much older, at least 18th century. If this sword was for actual use in combat, am I correct to assume it would have been used with some sort of shield, even on horseback? It's much heavier than, say, 1788 or 1796 pattern sabers.

Here are some pictures of another shamshir I own. The blade is much thinner and lighter than the first one, more typical I guess of what one thinks of when one thinks of shamshirs.

[A.alnakkas]

I dont think the first shamshir is made with combat effeciency in mind. They all seem to have heavy blades but those with older blades can be light ofcourse.

The 2nd shamshir is really nice, but I think the thumm (pommel) is a later replacement and maybe even the hilt slabs.

[A.alnakkas]

Examples from Syria (picts taken by Saqir AlAnizi) Pay close attention to the crossguard decoration and scabbard decoration. Some are identical to the first shamshir.

[elfina]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I dont think the first shamshir is made with combat effeciency in mind. They all seem to have heavy blades but those with older blades can be light ofcourse.

The 2nd shamshir is really nice, but I think the thumm (pommel) is a later replacement and maybe even the hilt slabs.

Thank you for the comment and the pictures. Yes, the hilts do look identical to the first shamshir I posted pictures of! The pommel and the hilt slabs on the second shamshir look original to me though.