Unknown origin

GIO · 29th June 2011, 05:23 PM

Can anybody translate the signature on this flintlock ?
What is the language ?
Thanks in advance

fernando · 29th June 2011, 08:31 PM

Hi Gio,
I might be wrong, but this is in principle meaningless. Sometimes regional gunsmiths (like Ottoman-Turks) inscribe these scribbles in the locks, to give them an European appearance.
But let's see what members with more knowkledge say about it.

fernando · 29th June 2011, 08:42 PM

An example seen on an Ottoman knee pistol .

.

GIO · 30th June 2011, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

An example seen on an Ottoman knee pistol .

.

Many thanks, Fernando
I might be wrong, but the signature is the same as mine. Since I suppose that it is difficult to presume that the manufacturer is the same, probably the writing has a meaning (e.g. "Made in Georgia")
I also imagined that this item could have been made in Turkish/Caucasian area.
The Ottoman pistol is yours ? Have you ever tried to have the writing translated ?

fernando · 30th June 2011, 05:57 PM

The pistol was once mine.
... And after browsing and reading about the 'inscription' in the lock plate, i came to the conclusion already expressed: meaningless.
But as i said, let others confirm or contradict.

GIO · 22nd July 2011, 03:10 PM

Any suggestion from qualified collectors ?

Matchlock · 22nd July 2011, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

Any suggestion from qualified collectors ?

I think we should all state the fact that 'Nando indeed is a more than qualified collector, as well as renowned and widely read.

So all I can do on the grounds of my own 30 years of experience is absolutely confirm his thesis that the 'signature' on your pistol is not a signature at all but a completely meaningless ornament in order to convey the superficial impression of actual script.

BTW, we just had a similar item for discussion:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...219#post124219

Best,
Michael

Jim McDougall · 23rd July 2011, 08:10 AM

I am entirely in accord with Fernando and Michael, though I must confess to being less than 'qualified' with a meagre four decades of studying arms, and not being particularly well versed in firearms. I am sure that the tone of that comment by Gio was inadvertantly worded, so wanted to 'qualify' the interchange by presuming 'any other suggestions?' was meant.

In the marking, decoration and inscription of arms it is quite common to see transliteration, misspelling and often linguistically impossible examples on them in many cases. Often phrases or words are 'interpreted' for appearance sake and particularly in cases where illiteracy is common, or where those applying the marks are not speakers of the language being applied. We often see such decorative application in the use of thuluth on weapons in the Sudan, and there are cases of incongruent lettering and phrases found on blades in India and other colonial areas. The interpretation of marks and symbols are often applied in native weapons in variation of the originals from European marks which may imply quality or in thier parlance talismanic value.

GIO · 23rd July 2011, 04:10 PM

Michael,
It was not my intention to say that Fernando is not qualified, I only wanted to have opinions/examples of Members more qualified than I.

Fernando,
I hope you do not have misintrpreted my words. In the affirmative, please apologize.

Matchlock · 23rd July 2011, 05:13 PM

Hi Gio,

I never intended to insinuate that you meant to do that, don't worry! That's why I put the 'wink' and 'cool' icons behind my sentence anyway!

Best,
Michael

Jim McDougall · 23rd July 2011, 05:42 PM

Nicely done guys

fernando · 23rd July 2011, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

... Fernando,
I hope you do not have misintrpreted my words. In the affirmative, please apologize.

Oh no GIO, by all means

After all, i am not at all so qualified as these guys state

; it is more a cocktail of diplomacy and solidarity they usualy prepare to defend their more fragile forum mates

.
... All the nicest people around here

Matchlock · 24th July 2011, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

All the nicest people around here

I'm glad I'm one of them!

m

29th June 2011, 05:23 PM	#1
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Unknown origin Can anybody translate the signature on this flintlock ? What is the language ? Thanks in advance Attached Images

29th June 2011, 08:42 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	An example seen on an Ottoman knee pistol . . Attached Images

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29th June 2011, 08:31 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Gio, I might be wrong, but this is in principle meaningless. Sometimes regional gunsmiths (like Ottoman-Turks) inscribe these scribbles in the locks, to give them an European appearance. But let's see what members with more knowkledge say about it.

30th June 2011, 05:57 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The pistol was once mine. ... And after browsing and reading about the 'inscription' in the lock plate, i came to the conclusion already expressed: meaningless. But as i said, let others confirm or contradict.

22nd July 2011, 03:10 PM	#6
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Any suggestion from qualified collectors ?

23rd July 2011, 08:10 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	I am entirely in accord with Fernando and Michael, though I must confess to being less than 'qualified' with a meagre four decades of studying arms, and not being particularly well versed in firearms. I am sure that the tone of that comment by Gio was inadvertantly worded, so wanted to 'qualify' the interchange by presuming 'any other suggestions?' was meant. In the marking, decoration and inscription of arms it is quite common to see transliteration, misspelling and often linguistically impossible examples on them in many cases. Often phrases or words are 'interpreted' for appearance sake and particularly in cases where illiteracy is common, or where those applying the marks are not speakers of the language being applied. We often see such decorative application in the use of thuluth on weapons in the Sudan, and there are cases of incongruent lettering and phrases found on blades in India and other colonial areas. The interpretation of marks and symbols are often applied in native weapons in variation of the originals from European marks which may imply quality or in thier parlance talismanic value.

23rd July 2011, 04:10 PM	#9
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Michael, It was not my intention to say that Fernando is not qualified, I only wanted to have opinions/examples of Members more qualified than I. Fernando, I hope you do not have misintrpreted my words. In the affirmative, please apologize.

23rd July 2011, 05:13 PM	#10
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Gio, I never intended to insinuate that you meant to do that, don't worry! That's why I put the 'wink' and 'cool' icons behind my sentence anyway! Best, Michael

23rd July 2011, 05:42 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Nicely done guys