Early Pandor Yataghan sabre??

[Andy Stevens]

Hello all!
We haven't posted in the discussion forums for a while and if truth be told have missed the buzz of the place! In the spirit of recent changes we have decided to start showing some of our more interesting and unusual pieces!
Our first offering is this Yataghan. from previous posts we have learned it may have been used by Pandor units in service with the Austrian army. At some point, a long time ago, the fittings have been put on upside down! We look forward to hearing any comments, particularly on the hilt. We think it's an early example but it's unlike any we have seen before. As a weapon, it feels very heavy and functional!

Andy

[Dmitry]

This is a curiosity!
I just looked in my book on Austro-Hungarian swords and saw a Pandur sword with a very similarly-shaped yataghan style blade, but with a different hilt.

[TVV]

I have a bad feeling for this one - the blade looks really rough, almost like it was cut from a sheet of steel. The guard and the rest of the hilt do not match, and I am not sure this could be explained away with a pandour attribution. I am sorry, but to me it looks like a composite piece.
Regards,
Teodor

[Dmitry]

FWIW, the turned down guard is similar in shape to the European hunting swords of the 1770s-1790s, albeit a crude one.

[Jim McDougall]

I must agree with Teodor, and this appears very much an item made 'in the style of' a yataghan type sword, which has some age, but most likely late 19th century. It has an almost theatrical appearance in the stylized elements, and the blade as noted seems like sheet stock, very heavy and thick looking.
The curious guard, which is a block like interpretation of a weapon of the hirschfanger form in a grouping of these in a museum in Vienna, attributed to pandours, but probably actually of later provenance. One of these has the 'Vivat Pandur' motto on the blade, which was a popular slogan added much later in recognition of these troops which had by then achieved a dubious notoriety.

The original pandour units of Baron von Trenck were assembled in 1744, though numbers of these units had been auxiliaries in Austrias Imperial armies since the early 18th century. As auxiliary units, these troops used exotic and often wild looking fashion and all types of 'oriental' type weaponry, operating as foragers and skirmishers that typically exceeded regulation. When thier depradations became out of control, they were disbanded and von Trenck was imprisoned, where he died in prison in 1749.
The concept for these auxiliary units continued in similar application in a number of Continental armies, including Germany's 'Freikorps'.

While the original pandour forces indeed had certain reference to a degree of use of the yataghans, these were among a wide range of variants of swords and hangers as these troops were privately raised and from regions in the Balkans and East Europe, with 'oriental' costume and weapons favored. For this item, that attribution seems improbable, though I very much enjoy seeing this very esoteric topic brought up!!! By the 19th century, certain exotic units existed as auxiliaries in a number of armies, but the 'vivat pandur' inscriptions were typically bravado placed on hunting weapons in my opinion...very much like 'Remember the Alamo' on some hunting type Bowies. This example seems far later than even the period of these units. Just my opinion, and I wish I could be more optimistic. I sure hate to welcome your post with not so good news.

Best regards,
Jim

[ariel]

double posting, sorry....

[ariel]

Dora Boskovic in her book about Yataghans in the collection of the State Muzeum in Zagreb writes that the famous memoires of Baron Franjo von Trent (1711-1749, unit established allegedly in 1743) were a later forgery. Also, using European imid-18-th century iconography of travels through the Balkans with sketches of the exotically-looking locals with their even more exotic weapons, there is not a single yataghan in sight until at least end of 18th century. Thus, she doubts ( or dismisses altogether) the idea of von Trent arming his pandours with yataghans.

I also have my antennae twitching: something is not right about this yataghan, for the same reasons outlined earlier by others. The quality of the blade can be judged only by the current owner, but I cannot believe that any actual yataghan user would have put the handle backwards!
I also do not enjoy passing bad news, sorry....

[Dmitry]

Here is a Pandur combination sword-pistol from the book by J.LUGOSI - KARDOK.
It has a yataghan-like blade, which he dates to the 1700s.

[Jim McDougall]

The excellent book by Ms. Boskovic seems to be an outstanding reference, and I wish I had a copy! It is interesting about the reference to Baron von Trencks memoires being a forgery, but as sensationalized as his case was in the times it does not seem surprising that such things would occur.

What are a matter of well established and documented fact are the descriptions of the exploits of his units of pandours, which as noted were disbanded in 1749 as he was imprisoned. It is important to note that these troops under his command were assembled from mercenaries that were comprised of numerous ethnic groups from various regions. They were an essentially privately assembled force of irregular troops who obviously would have used thier own weapons, though acting as auxiliaries for the Imperial Army of Austria.

Since these troops were essentially private and operating outside the regulatory standards of the army, it seems that it would be impossible to determine exactly what weapons were used by whom, and they were using all types of weapons from regions which had been under Ottoman suzerainty.
There were of course yataghans of Ottoman form used throughout the Balkans, including Croatia, which comprised the larger component of von Trencks forces. Since these troops essentially became outlaw, it seems unlikely provenanced examples would have been reliably documented.

While I would not question the well established authority of this very esteemed author and curator, I am admittedly a bit surprised at the assertion that no yataghans were in use in these regions, thus presumably could not have been used by von Trencks pandours. This would be like saying that the 'trench gun' shotguns were not ever used in Viet Nam, since they were outside regulation .

It must be conceded that a great number of the weapons that are believed to have been used by pandours, particularly the horsemen,often had heavier deep bellied 'yataghan' blades, and typically European style hilts or in many cases karabela or shallow yataghan eared types, along with of course varying European style sabres. The foot troops, however, seem to have in some degree carried the more familiar yataghan as a secondary weapon in the sash in janissary fashion. It seems I was once corrected in my assumption that Balkan or European forces fighting Turks would not have also had yataghans some years ago.

The attached map is to illustrate the proximity of these regions, and the likely potential diffusion of the yataghan, as well as a couple of the illustrations illustrating 'panduren' and are probably among those being disputed....and our man in question, the Baron.

[Dmitry]

That is an excellent point. To my knowledge there was no uniformed "pandur sword" pattern.
I feel that for the sake of posterity it must be stressed that to call a European hunting sword a "Pandur sword" based only on the blade marked VIVAT PANDUR would be erroneous.
This was, in my opinion, just a popular hirschfanger and jagdplaute blade inscription in the mid to late 1700s, which possibly and probably originated in Austria.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

That is an excellent point. To my knowledge there was no uniformed "pandur sword" pattern.
I feel that for the sake of posterity it must be stressed that to call a European hunting sword a "Pandur sword" based only on the blade marked VIVAT PANDUR would be erroneous.
This was, in my opinion, just a popular hirschfanger and jagdplaute blade inscription in the mid to late 1700s, which possibly and probably originated in Austria.

Thanks very much Dmitry, I very much appreciate the support on that. Its been about 15 years since my original research on this intriguing topic, and while these Vivat Pandur swords are really attractive and appealing, they are just as noted.
R.D.C. Evans ("The Plug Bayonet" ) also wrote some great material on this motto on the plug bayonets with the motto.

All best regards,
Jim

[Andy Stevens]

Thankyou for the replies so far gentlemen on this fascinating subject. We aquired this sword in as part of a group buy, so any comments made are taken happily and in a constructive manner. We're still rather interested in opinions regarding the hilt decoration, as a fair degree of work has been put into its construction-the bone inset disks are all hand made and finished and the ears of the handle demonstrate a skilled hand. Was this then somebodies attempt to copy the much more ornate 'true' yataghans or is simply a local interpration of such incorporating local style and design? The blade, when held for closer inspection, appears to us no worse than those found on some Indian munition grade tulwars- crude but effective. As for the sword being ill fitting, that was at first our thought, but having played around with it a wee bit, we've come to the conclusion that the parts may have once fitted snuggly and the blade when mounted the correct way round would have made this an effective weapon. These is just what we see close up. Whatever it be, a genuine old fighter or a still vintage pretender, we are glad that its seen the light of day and raised a few eyebrows! thanks again,
Here are some pics showing some more detail of the blade.
Andy and Karina.

[VANDOO]

A INTERESTING SWORD IT APPEARS TO HAVE SUFFERED FROM EXPOSURE TO THE ELEMENTS FOR QUITE A SPELL. TO ME ITS WEATHERING AND PITTING LOOKS NATURAL NOT CONTRIVED BY MAN. THE BLADE IS TOO FAR GONE TO BE WORTH RESTORATION BUT YOU COULD CONTINUE TO CLEAN THE SECTION AND ETCH TO GET A BETTER IDEA AS TO ITS QUALITY. CLEAN UP THE HANDLE A BIT AND PUT A BIT OF MINERAL OR BABY OIL ON THE HORN AND BONE. THE HORN IS TOO FAR GONE TO RESTORE AND I WOULD JUST LEAVE IT AS IS OTHER THAN REMOVING THE DIRT AND APPLYING SOME OIL. I AM ASSUMING THE DECORATED DISKS ARE BONE AS I DOUBT IVORY COULD HAVE SURVIVED THE NEGLECT AND EXPOSURE THIS SOWRD HAD ENDURED. I WOULD CLASSIFY IT AS ARTEFACT GRADE, IF YOU WANT TO DO CARBON DATE OR ANY TESTING DO IT BEFORE APPLYING ANY PRESERVITIVES OR OIL. CLEANING IT UP A BIT AND LOOKING IT OVER CLOSELY WITH GOOD LIGHT AND MAGNIFICATION MAY REVEAL SOMETHING TO HELP CONFIRM ITS AGE OR AUTHENCITY. THANKS FOR SHAREING GOOD LUCK

[Rick]

Whatever this blade be I believe it has suffered the indignity of shoddy workmanship before ever it showed any age .

Instincts tell me to look askance at this piece .

More emoticons please ...

[Jim McDougall]

These are some hirschfanger type swords in Vienna in a museum display which have been suggested 'of the type' often carried by pandours. The example on the left has a crossguard which seems reminiscent of the much heavier and workmanlike guard on the example we are discussing. It should be noted of course that the grip is of the familiar European hanger form of the mid 18th century and for quite a number of years later.

I would point out that the blade on this example in the Vienna illustration has a very curious clipped point. In Gerhard Seifert's 1962 book, "Schwert Degen Sabel" he has a group of line drawings illustrating blade sections and point types and terminology......there is a tip remarkably like the one on this Vienna sword which carries the term 'pandour point'. There was unfortunately no further material elaborating on the source of the term, but interesting to see of course the pandour term. Actually back in those days, I admit to being among those who had no idea what a pandour was !!

Getting back to Andys sword, it would be tempting to connect the guard to being of somewhat that style, however it is far outside the mid 18th century period in my opinion, and far too heavy to be considered of this type.

The 'pandour' use of yataghans would likely have been of traditional form, by the foot troops as previously noted, and these did not have guards of course....as noted as well, it is only presumed what kinds of weapons would have been used, but yataghans as far as I know did not have this kind of guard.

The hangers used by von Trencks forces, as shown by type in Buttin (1933) were typically of karabela type hilt, and did not have yataghan type blades.
There was apparantly a type of yataghan blade, larger and deep bellied, and believed to have been used by cavalry of European auxiliary troops modelled on the pandour units, from later in the 18th century. These swords seem to have had cleft yataghan style hilts of staghorn and were based on many of the hirshfangers of the period. One of these type blades is seen here in an illustration posted by Libra on a concurrent thread with an ivory hilt example but not associated with the units I refer to. The very large deep bellied blade I have seen before on examples that are believed to have been from these European units with troops from Balkan regions. The ones I have seen did not have this kind of wootz blade however, but typically were European made with cyphers and heraldic motif.

Looking at Andys example here, by what can be seen photographically, the age seems somewhat in resemblance to artifacts I have seen often while travelling through desert regions here in the southwest, most of which seem to date from about 1870s to 1900. This has the appearance of an item which remained static in an old building or such surrounding in very dry heat for a very long time. There is just enough moisture to bring rust, but intermittant heat to prevent dramatic overtaking of corrosion. That would be about the limit of my forensics skill I personally think it may well be a theatrical item of those times, which though it might sound dismissive, I think these have a certain intrinsic value as period novelty items regardless.

A rough piece indeed, but still historic in its own right. ...and surely brought forward some great discussion on the pandours!!

All the best,
Jim

[Dmitry]

Let's not forget the "turquerie" balls that were fashionable with the royals and upper nobility of several Germanic States, Hungary, and perhaps indeed Austria, from the 1600s into the 1800s. The participants dressed in Turkish costumes, had their horses outfitted in Turkish style tack, dined in the lavish tents a la turque, copulated in the mock harems, and wore the weapons and accouterments either borrowed from the Turkish Chambers [as in Dresden, for example, but I'm sure other royals had kept them also], old family collections, or had some props made. This might be such an early prop, perhaps made for a servant. Or else it's an old operatic prop.
Just a wild guess...

[Andy Stevens]

Thanks for all the replies folks, we will attempt a gentle restoration- the first job being to realease the tang nut so as to turn the blade the right way round. We will post pictures if we find anything interesting. Regards Andy and karina.

[Dmitry]

Here's another yataghan-styled European hunting sword, this one bears an Italian-inscribed blade.

[Andy Stevens]

Thanks Dmitri for posting yet another fine yataghan style sword, this topic has certainly raised our interest in these unusual weapons. We are still curious regarding the hilt, as someone certainly went to a lot of trouble to make what is to our eyes a well crafted thing. Regards A & K

[Jeff D]

Hi Andy,

You might find this thread from 2006 interesting. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hinese+hunting

Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Andy,

You might find this thread from 2006 interesting. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hinese+hunting

Jeff

Hi Jeff, and thanks for posting the link to this thread!! Wow, four years ago, seems like a lifetime
Some good information indeed was discussed......I still think this piece more likely 19th century and though the style on some of the earlier 'Chinese' jian style guard hunting weapons in the earlier thread is seen, this example is far more workmanlike...the blade distinctly metal stock like without fullers or working that can be seen.
It is interesting that some work was put into the yataghan style hilt, but was not applied to the other components.
Still an interesting piece though Andy there must be some interesting history behind this, even though not as far back as the pandours....the reverse mounting of the blade notwithstanding.

All best regards,
Jim