Colonial hanger, Spanish dagger or ?

[M ELEY]

Here it is. Well, now you can see why I hate posting pics. First, two hours of photos too big to download. With editing, thought I solved problem, but ended up with this. AQnyway, will try to upload more that can actually be seen!

[fernando]

Him Mark,
You don't need to exhaust yourself, trying to tame the beast.
Jst email the pictures to me (for one) as they are, and i will be glad to resize and post them on your behalf.
Fernando

[celtan]

Hi Eley,

Why don't you simply open a free account on Photobucket.com, and then simply copy/paste the image code or image thumb at the end of your post?

It saves website space and provides a large image.

BTW, Jim'bo ist ein expert in espadas anchas...

Best to ye' et Nando

M

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Here it is. Well, now you can see why I hate posting pics. First, two hours of photos too big to download. With editing, thought I solved problem, but ended up with this. AQnyway, will try to upload more that can actually be seen!

[Rick]

We'd rather these pictures be uploaded to the forum for continuity.

When they disappear as links in time as they will; we will have nothing to show to people searching the database .

Please be kind and upload your pics .

[katana]

Originally Posted by Rick

We'd rather these pictures be uploaded to the forum for continuity.

When they disappear as links in time as they will; we will have nothing to show to people searching the database .

Please be kind and upload your pics .

Hi Rick ,
I couldn't agree more....its infuriating when reading older threads and finding no pictures (broken links)

All the best
Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
Thank you for posting this!!!! You know I get weak in the knees every time I see one of these, and Manolo thank you so much for the kind words...although Im no expert I do readily admit my passion for them.

Mark, its good to see the progress you've made, and I must tell you that while a lot of folks are pretty comfortable with the dynamics of these magic boxes.....it took me more years than I care to admit to finally figure out how to post things. Actually my co-pilot here (my wife) is the tech support around here, and she finally helped me with getting it done...and once I had done it a few times, it became less of a mystery.


Fernando, very kind gesture there sir!!! A true gentleman you are

I agree, these threads are intended to stand as a virtual archives for future collectors queries and research, and its important to keep their integrity with images intact.

Thank you so much for posting this, and I'd really like to get some discussion going on espada anchas.

All best regards,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Hello,

I imagine these were seen in the Phillipines as well. Here is a tourist oddity from a while back that seems to combine the tradition of the espada with fantasy nihonto.

Regards,
Emanuel

[celtan]

oopsies!

And I thought I was helping by not downloading the actual pic....

Zorry!

M

Originally Posted by Rick

We'd rather these pictures be uploaded to the forum for continuity.

When they disappear as links in time as they will; we will have nothing to show to people searching the database .

Please be kind and upload your pics .

[M ELEY]

Thanks, everyone, for replying and coming to my aid.

Fernando, I may take you up on that. I'm going to try one more time and if I fail, I'll PM you. Thank you so much for the offer. Pics aren't the best, but they should get the point across once properly sized...

Jim, I also have a "co-pilot" in all things gadgety, namely my 13 y.o. daughter- . In any case, I'm still not sure if this piece is an espada or a colonial American piece. I will hopefully be posting better pics soon. Thanks!

[celtan]

Marc, is your OS Windows or Mac?

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thanks, everyone, for replying and coming to my aid.

Fernando, I may take you up on that. I'm going to try one more time and if I fail, I'll PM you. Thank you so much for the offer. Pics aren't the best, but they should get the point across once properly sized...

Jim, I also have a "co-pilot" in all things gadgety, namely my 13 y.o. daughter- . In any case, I'm still not sure if this piece is an espada or a colonial American piece. I will hopefully be posting better pics soon. Thanks!

[M ELEY]

Hi Manolo,
It's Windows, but save your time. I am completely illiterate when it comes to even the basic computer skills. My daughter, on the other hand, is pretty good. We'll eventually get it right.....or I'll be sending the pics off to Nando-

[Dmitry]

Are the photos upcoming?

[M ELEY]

Hello, Dmitry, and thanks for coming in on this one. I'm still working on getting them loaded and will probably end up sending them off to Fernando for uploading. I am now convinced that the strapwork around the hilt is indeed low-grade pewter and not lead as I initially thought. It is soft enough that I can slightly scratch it with my thumb nail, but where it has broken away from the wood grip, it is brittle and non-bendable. It's not white metal, but I guess it could still be some other alloy. Tin? I know tin-smithing was around then. Have to do more research. I still think it's a contstant for early American, but also Span colonial.

[M ELEY]

Trying again...

[M ELEY]

More pics...

[M ELEY]

Thanks, Rick! That program you recommended was easy to use. I did it myself- gasp!

[katana]

Hi M Eley ,
well done Having loads of teenagers around I had to learn quickly...to save face

Hope you don't mind ..I have re-edited your picture and reposted. I'm lucky, I have a photo editor which is easy to use.

All the best
David

Ah dear......since writing this post.......loads more pictures have been posted You have obviously mastered it now

.

[M ELEY]

The sword measures just under 22" long with a 17" blade, so I guess it could be either a short hanger or long dagger. As already stated, the interesting wood grip cut with grooves with metal strapwork (damaged on one side). The alloy isn't white metal, silver, or lead (not soft enough). It could be tin or pewter (I suspect the latter). Note the small hole in the quillon, possibly for a chain link or knot? So...what is it? Euro hanger, colonial piece, Spanish espada? Dagger or sword? Late 18th, early or mid-19th? Thanks all.

[katana]

Hi
I would not rule out Africa......there are a number of similar swords originating from West Africa.....Although I have not seen one with the 'spiral' decorated hilt.

All the best
David

[fernando]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Trying again...

.



Fernando

[katana]

Just a quick thought....the metal 'spiral' could be a zinc alloy. Africans are masters of utilising any resource. They obtain the zinc alloy from the outer casing of dry cell batteries. (invented late 19th C).

Bearing in mind many areas are fairly remote from electrical supplies, the use of batteries by colonalists was increasingly more widespread as the 20th C progressed. Discharged batteries were not re-chargeable and discarded.

A fairly similar sword from Africa
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=toureg

Regards David

.

[M ELEY]

Hmmm...I guess it was presumptive of me to not think of a possible ethnographic origin. It could indeed be African, but I still think this piece has some aging to it. I also was thinking about zinc, but being that it's use came later in the 19th, I dismissed it. Is there any test I could do to positively identify the alloy in the hilt? I still think it is tin or pewter, but not sure.
If it is African, I hope it's Algerian or Moroccan (Pirate!! ), but the piece looks more European/N American to me.-

[Jim McDougall]

Mark, beautifully done!!! Congratulations It really feels great to master the mysteries of these things, and its fun once you get going.
This certainly does not resemble any espada ancha I've seen, though these did get pretty crude in later times, and by the mid 19th century were essentially large Bowie knives. It does not rule out the innovative edged weapons created by Mexican blacksmiths later in the 19th century, which would be hard to accurately identify.
The unusual D guard and scrolled overlap at the pommel, which seems more characteristic for a quillon terminal and the gadrooned metal on the grip could lend toward Africa. With the style and shortened blade, maybe it could be a dirk from the Maghreb's 'nautical enterprises' ?
Interesting though!!!!
I look forward to your postings coming with this newfound skill!!! yay!
All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Thank you, Jim and David for responding.
David, the sword you mentioned with the zinc hilt was Taureg, a people from the Maghreb, so perhaps my jest wasn't too far off. it would be nice if it were associated in that part of the continent for my collecting purposes.

Jim, all I can say is...Aaaarrrr! Have you ever seen a gadrooned African grip like this before? It was what attracted me to the piece in the first place. Unusual.

Anyway, any suggestions as to testing metal just to see if it's zinc, tin, or ?? Also, a date? Mid- to late- 19th, I guess?

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
Actually, in a word...no, but Im always curious about these composite, very workmanlike weapons, which would certainly be most likely to have been assembled by makeshift armouries or blacksmiths. As we have discussed, the high times of piracy and adventure did not end with that of the "Golden Age', but continued worldwide to this day of course. The 'Spanish Main' existed into the 20th century through the Caribbean, Gulf of Mexico, Philippines and South America, with the far eastern sector in Spanish regions of the Maghreb.
Then there were 'Barbary Pirates' et al, and this I think presents most of the confusion in these 'worked' and assembled ersatz weapons.

I feel like I've seen something with the strap like guard which extends as a D guard, and protruding pommel strap with scrolled terminal, it seems to recall the 17th century English hangers seen in some cases. The 'heavy spiralled cage' is another representation of hangers hilts of 18th century, but only in much finer banded work or spiraled flutes in wood or horn design. The crude heavy bars and the metal itself seem more 20th century. I'm not sure about pewter, which I think was more a cast metal than workable sheeted type, and this seems too heavy for tin, looks more like aluminum or alloyed sheet steel. Nothing from the early types and periods this appears to represent.

The blade, and the hilt seem much earlier than this unusual grip cage, and it seems that a dirk or Bowie type weapon was fashioned here. I guess thats about the limit of my 'forensics' interpretation
As always, looking forward to thoughts of others.

Arrrr!!! You're always good for these conundrum pieces Capt. Mark!!!

All the best,
Jim

[pbleed]

Friends,
This list is consistently polite and positive and I admire that, but....
I have to say that I am very suspicious of this piece. The blade and the guard may be all right, but the grip just looks, well, hinky. I bet the metal is either lead or pewter - and sure it could be zinc or "spelter" -This kind of work is EASY. If you have not already studied them, I recommend Ben Hunt's wonder books on "Indian craft." He shows how to this kind of work and it is not a big deal. Beyond that, look at how the grip fits the blade. It is klunky and I think bad from a functional point of view. I bet it is very heavy and I just can't believe that it is balanced or comfortable in the hand. Look at how wide the grisp is were it joins the guard. If it had age, I would expect much more wear at this point.
So, I have to wonder if this wasn't make - or assembled or augmented - in a basement workshop, recently.
Forgive me if I am being too suspicious.
Peter

[M ELEY]

Hello Peter,

Although the piece is primitive and disappointing to me in that it isn't what I had hoped, I don't think it's as bad as all that. Many "colonial-made" weapons are crude in the way mine is. I have several Spani colonial pieces that could easily have been made in the basement, but have aging and are established patterns. Likewise, most of the American colonial pieces in Neumann's and Moore's guides are clunky, mismatched blades, incorrect balanced, etc. This little dagger is actually very light, has a nice patina and is intended as a true weapon. Likewise, African weapons were made using whatever materials were availible, car engine springs and zinc thermometer cores included. Many Zulu spear blades in the 19th were made from barrel hoops from British kegs. Likewise, I wouldn't place it any earlier than late 19th.

[katana]

Hi Mark,
perhaps you should put this piece on the Ethnographic Forum....not everyone views the European one and you might get more input

Regards David

[colin henshaw]

Hi

I've just stumbled across this post...I'm fairly sure this is a West African sword (as mentioned by Katana), copied from the European type. Probably Fon (Dahomey) or Akan (Ghana). I've had knives from that area with lead inlay to the handle, in the past.

The forest kingdoms of West Africa had a long period of contact with Europeans and copied their weapons etc extensively.

A very interesting piece.

Regards.

[katana]

Hi Mark,
there seems to be markings/numerals near the hilt, is that the case ?

David