Sword from Lombok -- comments please

[tom hyle]

A couple things have slid by without challenge that I don't know are true, so I'm gonna try to catch up with them. I don't remember who said them, and it doesn't much matter, anyway. K(e)ris panjang, AFAIK "long kris", has been fairly extensively questioned as a purely ceremonial/execution weapon; I've seen and heard the contention that it was a combat weapon, and that it was a response to European thrusting swords. I don't really know the truth of this, but if it's been settled in a definite way, I haven't heard about that. Second, K(e)ris in general, in its true fighting form, is an effective slashing weapon. In the first place, the tangs are not as weak as many seem to expect from their size (and some of them are actually pretty robust); they don't just go around snapping at the drop of a hat; many, I say many, old "Western" butchering knives, used for slashing as their routine purpose, have very similar tangs; indeed, about identical. Also, some k(e)ris have oval-section tangs, though I increasingly suspect this is one of those things I didn't realize the unusualness of when I've seen it before. But mainly, I think there is a misunderstanding concerning the term "slash". First, a slash is not synonymous to a hack or chop. The aspect of this I will address at the moment is that a hack or chop is an action that distributes its force across the blade, while a slash, however, distributes its force largely along the blade, and along the tang as well, and a proper slash does not unduly stress a tang. K(e)ris is a competent cut-and-thrust weapon, and also, though I don't know the extent of its use thus within its native culture, quite capable of competent and effective parries (which also distribute their force along the tang). The main concern in slashing with a modernly mounted k(e)ris is neither the blade (if it's a fighting one, and not unduly over-washed) nor the tang, but the joining to the handle, or the lack thereof; the danger is that the blade would simply pull out of the hilt.

[nechesh]

Tom makes a good point about the joining of the hilt and blade being perhaps a bigger problem than the tang when fighting with a keris. I have heard that in some places pitch was used for a more secure hold on the blade when a keris was to possiblly be used in fighting. I have not been able to comfirm this though. I did once receive a Bali keris in this condition, though it is impossible to know exactly when and by whom this attachment was made. Tom is also correct that there is a big difference between slashing and chopping. However, given the traditional manner of grasping the weapon, with thumb and forefinger actually holding the blade at the pecetan, i'm not sure if slashing in the usual manner is very practical, though this would not, i suppose, count out making short slashes with the blade. This grasp seems really to be most ideal for a stabbing action and it has been my understanding that the angle at which the blade sits is intended specifically for this stabbing action in order to more likely guide the blade towards the center of the body and the vital organs. I would think parrying might be dangerous with ones fingers on the blade, but maybe not.

[BluErf]

Technically, the keris panjang does not have a picetan. At least most don't; they have that small circular cavity cut into the gandik area.

Furthermore, the form of the keris panjang blade does not aid slashing. It is long but narrow, and is seldom very sharp along the edges; a decently broad and sharp blade would have facilitated slashing. Also, while there are robust panjangs, there are also a substantial number of flimsy bladed ones, some barely longer than 18 inches.

The thing that really makes me dismiss the rapier-vs-panjang idea is the fact that the only time you see a panjang is during a ceremony involving some sultan or raja, such as coronation ceremonies. You don't see it being carried around by during normal every day life.

And of course, there is no record of a fight involving a keris panjang. Only of a keris panjang being used to execute high ranking criminals.

[RobT]

Here are the images of my sword. Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
RobT

[tom hyle]

Helps me; beautiful
The pinched grip is absolutely no impediment to cutting. In fact, I, and a great many other cooks and hunters, often hold my knives this way, and not only when board-chopping (a motion not much like combat), but when butchering (an action very much like cutting an opponant) as well. In cutting it aids control. It does seem an impediment to parrying. As I've said I don't know how parrying with a k(e)ris fits or doesn't fit into its native culture (and, to elucidate, I do not, for instance, even know the age of the pinchy hold, nor its universality; does anyone?); I just know that it can be done, and done quite nicely; I don't know (waxing repetitive; I'd explain why, but someone might not like the explanation) about its nativeness/traditionality, and have clearly (I hope) said so.

[Ian]

Rob:

Thank you for posting the pictures. Remarkably similar sword to the one I show above. They could almost have come from the same hands. Even the scababrd style is virtually identical. I would say we have a definite style of sword and not an unusual assemblage.

Noting the wear to the wood handle on yours, I wonder whether the handle on mine might be a replacement for a damaged original (hence its different fit to the cup).

Ian.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Ian

Rob:

Thank you for posting the pictures. Remarkably similar sword to the one I show above. They could almost have come from the same hands. Even the scababrd style is virtually identical. I would say we have a definite style of sword and not an unusual assemblage.

Noting the wear to the wood handle on yours, I wonder whether the handle on mine might be a replacement for a damaged original (hence its different fit to the cup).

Ian.

That would be my guess Ian , the only thing that puzzles me is that a replacement for the hilt would be easy to carve to fit . That brings me to the conclusion that the present handle was swapped out rather than a new handle having been carved . I suspect that this was done because of the quality of the wood that the present hilt seems to show .

[Ian]

Yes Rick, that would make sense. Perhaps the handle was originally made for a keris and got swapped over -- would explain the odd fit. Pelet wood is a prestigious material.

Ian.

[Naga Sasra]

Dear fellow forum members,

When I back in post #11 identified the piece as a Cundrik or Sundrik, I didn’t realize that 26 posts later the tread took on its own life so to speak.

We have been all over from a pedang suduk to a panjang, with variations and reshapes thereof.

Ian asked me to expand on the subject which I will be happy to do, I hesitated to bring the photos of Djelenga’s page 101 to the forum as the quality of the photo have a lot to be desired, but I will attach it as bad as it is:



English translation:
Cundrik, Sundrik---Its shape is like a keris without a ganja with a blade that is narrow, straight and rather thick. The scabbard is usually like an elderly person’s stick, however, sometimes it moves towards the shape of a pedang scabbard.

With other words, Djelenga reports that during the second half of the 20th century some people living in Lombok referred to this form of weapon as a Cundrik.

Now keep in mind that names for everything in Indonesia vary from place to place, even from village to village when those villages are only a few miles apart. What a Cundrik should look like can therefore become a matter of interpretation depending on where you are in Indonesia. For example Tammens in volume 3 wrote a lengthy essay as to what a Cundrik should look like, one dictionary simply gives the meaning of a Cundrik as “a short dagger” the meaning can therefore mean different things to different people.

Another thing that we need to incorporate is the fact that the population on Lombok was a mixture of people from other places—Jawa, Sulawesi, Bali—and they brought their own culture to Lombok. The original people to Lombok were the Sasaks, and over time they all blended in together.

The blades used have varied in style and form, from what the picture depicts to cut down pedang blades, sometimes old bayonet blades, sometimes a blade that was obviously a keris blade that had been altered, and this type of mounting was used for a while during the 19th century, and possible early 20th century.

As for the mystery of the handle I will suggest that it was simply replaced at an earlier time, with one that was carved as a Lombok Cundrik handle and available or it was fitted to the end users size of the hand.

[tom hyle]

Thanks. I really like these swords; I like 'em all, dang it!

[Ian]

Thanks Naga Sasra. Greatly appreciated.

Ian.