Help on mark on Italian sword ca. 1580

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Great thread! As far as I’m aware the Venice arsenal marks would be either a C.X. for Consiglio dei Dieci or the Lion of St. Mark. So it seems to me that the twig mark must be an identifier of origin for the purchaser and seller alike. It might also have been something of a quality standard mark that it had passed tests by a guild. Marca a Mosca is probably a descriptive term (like “twig” mark). I think Fernando is onto something when pointing to Boccia & Coelho mentioning the mark as ferri di mulino (iron mill) marks. On German swords carrying the twig marks you might consider the possibility that these were North Italian blades with fake Solingen marks, rather than the other way around.

I wish I could find more to read on this in the English language (like Gotti’s Caino book!). You may find this of interest: https://www.hema-minsk2019.org/base_...ibition-part-3. It mentions a Beluni knot.

It REALLY is a great thread! and you bring forth some great points. The arsenal of the Doge at Venice is remarkable, and I do recall the CX (Council of Ten) which seems to appear on a very limited number of weapons. The winged lion of St. Mark also seems limited in occurrence, both of these are described well in Boccia & Coelho. It seems these are seen on some of the schiavona so well associated with the Doge.

Very interesting points you bring up on the 'twig' mark described as the ferri di Mulino in Boccia & Coelho, which seems not only appropriate but telling.
This reference to 'iron mill' obviously lends well to a place producing blades, and I know that I have seen this mark noted as a 'mill rind' as well. The 'rind' is of course the four armed support for the millstone, and the quadrangular nature of this mark in basis is tempting to such association.

I will note here that there are markings used in very similar capacity, which are dentated circles known as 'cog wheels' (Mann, 1962, Wallace Coll. A768).
Here we have another component of the machinery of blade producing mills used as a mark on blades.

What is puzzling is, these marks seem with basic features, but in variation distorted (some of the 'marca mosca; twig; ferri di Mulino) so much so that the numbers of them in Wallace Coll. plates look almost like Rohrschach images.

You make a very good point on the possibility of Italian blades carrying these 'twig' marks possibly reflecting German markings. In looking through Wallace Coll. it seems the propensity of these type marks in German swords is profound, so that possibility is quite plausible. There was so much diffusion of the spurious use of marks, and even movements of makers between countries that it would be difficult to make broad classifications on them. It becomes very much a matter of assessment based on merits and features of each specific weapon.

Great link and often surprising how much important historic detail is included in these kinds of references involving reproduction of classic swords.
On the Gotti book...……….wish I could find one!!! Pretty hard to find, and all there is online with this name is of course the 'Teflon don'. Sometimes pop culture overwhelms serious history.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

I noticed this storta some time on a German website , I believe it was offered by Historica Arma and/or Fricker, did you acguire it recently ?

best,

I questioned that myself earlier. It was on the Historica site, as a two handed storta, now taken down after sale.

Apparently the OP, BladeMan, bought it from the noted website recently and posted it here before they updated their site. .

[BladeMan]

That‘s a lot of interesting and helpful information here, thank you all. Much appreciated.

Measurements are in post #11, i copied them again:
Length is 92 cm with a 70 cm blade, PoB is 13 cm and the weight is 1011 grams


And yes, i bought this sword from Historica Arma a few weeks ago and the dealer forgot to take it off the website.

[Jim McDougall]

I forgot to add to my earlier post, the image of the ferri di mulino, which is the mill rind component of blade making mill machinery which may be the pictographic device apparently used as a symbol represented in these marks (of course with notable variations). The varied interpretations of this basic symbol may account for the unusual terms describing them, such as the 'fly' or 'twig'.

In the attachment is the heraldic version from Italian coat of arms.

As mentioned earlier, another application of such mill machinery used symbolically in blade makers markings is the cog wheel, which if I understand seems more used in German context.
These are more of a sphere with dentated lines extended from it in a surround like sun with rays, and this of course often seen as a solar symbol.

It seems that in highly regarded work such as the Wallace Collection catalog James Mann refers to these markings as 'makers marks', which in my impression does align them with certain makers. However there was so much cross use of these devices by various makers, as well as the deviation or use in different number and configuration, aligning these to a particular maker is in my view, typically most unlikely.

Naturally there are many makers marks known assigned to specific makers from recorded material, and those are well listed in the compendiums we commonly use.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Now that the town of Belluno has been mentioned, I think it would be interesting to show a blade from this town - although the sword is from Deccan 17th century..
The sword is a firangi, meaning wit a foreign blade, and the inscription says XX CIVIDAL D BELUN XX - which means 'The City of Belluno'.

[Jim McDougall]

Jens, thank you so much for this entry!!!
This is a magnificent example, and I forgot our discussions on this some years back. This example inscription was the first I had learned of Italian blades being inscribed with specific city, indicating this may have belonged to perhaps a city guard or militia unit, in this case Belluno.

Naturally our reaction is to recall the famed Andrea Ferara, who has been steeped in mystery for literally centuries, is now known to have actually been a working swordsmith in the last quarter of the 16th c.

Belluno was one of the number of well known blade making cities in the Veneto sphere, which seems to extended as far as Milan, Brescia and Ferara (interestingly not the city where either Andrea or his brother Donato worked).

Of note are the 'X's enclosing the wording, an affectation often seen on Solingen blades, and often with the ANDREA FERARA name, known to have been spuriously applied there for blades destined for Scotland.

It is fascinating learning more on these Italian blades, and most interesting to try to determine the aspects of their notable presence as 'firangi' in the swords of India. While we know there was a considerable conduit of German blades into India, less is known on the blades from Italy, which I don't think had as much direct trade with India...….or did they?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim, you are welcome and yes it is quite interesting.
Belluno is in the south of Tirol, in the Dolomits in northern Italy, and at the time it was under Veneziano control. Te town was famous for sword smiths like Andrea Ferrara, Pietro Formicano and others. To this comes that in the Dolomits there are a number of iron mines from where they got the raw material.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim, you are welcome and yes it is quite interesting.
Belluno is in the south of Tirol, in the Dolomits in northern Italy, and at the time it was under Veneziano control. Te town was famous for sword smiths like Andrea Ferrara, Pietro Formicano and others. To this comes that in the Dolomits there are a number of iron mines from where they got the raw material.

You bet Jens. As I mentioned we know that German blades were often imported into India (through Mahratha ports I believe) but were trade contacts from Italy active in any direct contact as well? The number of Italian blades seem almost incidental in comparison to German, yet we know the sickle marks (regarded as Genoan) were widely copied on Indian blades.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim, you are welcome and yes it is quite interesting.
Belluno is in the south of Tirol, in the Dolomits in northern Italy, and at the time it was under Veneziano control. Te town was famous for sword smiths like Andrea Ferrara, Pietro Formicano and others. To this comes that in the Dolomits there are a number of iron mines from where they got the raw material.

Jens,

It’s absolutely fascinating that sword or at least blade making in old days tend to be concentrated to locations with iron, wood and water. Also, in the area of the alps sword making is an ancient craft where the Celts were known to have possessed the secrets of how to make objects out of iron. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this is where swords were mostly produced until 19thC when they could be mass produced. I wish we knew more about the sword smiths and their ancient craft.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Victrix,


It was not always so. In Marv in Khorasan NW of India, they did not have iron ores, nor wood, so they had to import it, and they made fantastic sword blades. Ann Feuerback was there when they excavated a sword from the 9th century.
It is very interesting to resarch these old sword makers, but the informations are far between, and not always easy to find.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

... It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India...

Well Jens, all those bundles of blades taken by the Portuguese (firangi) for trade in India, were in fact of Italian manufacture.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

Very well noted Jens, with the cross use of markings whether punzones, phrases or names or combinations thereof, it is hard to say exactly which sources of blades were traded into India. I suppose it would be a matter as well of what period we are considering, and into which regions. The major ports of Italy, Genoa and Venice, of course carried blades among their goods into many entrepots in their trade networks, and within those probably mingled with shipments continuing to India.

While the Portuguese of course were notably the key early European contact traders into India (hence the term firangi was often taken to mean 'Portuguese' rather than the broader 'foreign'), my question was pertaining to any 'direct' trade with either of those Italian states.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Fernando, as you seem to know far more about the subject, I think it must be you ball game:-) - so I retire.


Yes Jim you have point, which is interesting, but I do not have the knowlege to answer it, it would take a lot of research, in an area where I have far too little knowledge.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Very well noted Jens, with the cross use of markings whether punzones, phrases or names or combinations thereof, it is hard to say exactly which sources of blades were traded into India. I suppose it would be a matter as well of what period we are considering, and into which regions. The major ports of Italy, Genoa and Venice, of course carried blades among their goods into many entrepots in their trade networks, and within those probably mingled with shipments continuing to India.

While the Portuguese of course were notably the key early European contact traders into India (hence the term firangi was often taken to mean 'Portuguese' rather than the broader 'foreign'), my question was pertaining to any 'direct' trade with either of those Italian states.

I’m pretty sure “firangi” means Frank or Frankish, Jim. This term is used for Western Europeans since crusader days when muslims did not distinguish much between European nationalities. When I went to a gold shop in an Arabian Gulf soukh 10 years ago to repair a contemporary gold chain, the proprietor gave me a beady eyed look and inquired whether it was “franji” (i.e. Western European, or Swedish in my particular case) gold. In contrast Orthodox or Byzance is called Rûm (as in East Rome or Constantinople) by muslims. So the local Orthodox hospital in Beirut is called Al Roum Hospital. They have used these terms for 1,000 years as far as I know as nations came and went.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Fernando, as you seem to know far more about the subject, I think it must be you ball game:-) - so I retire ...

No ball ... or any other game, Jens; no such reaction needed . I know no more than what i have read so often. When i get home i may be able to define this in detail.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

... I’m pretty sure “firangi” means Frank or Frankish, Jim. This term is used for Western Europeans since crusader days when muslims did not distinguish much between European nationalities...

So ... in due context, Portuguese were (also ) Firangi.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Victrix, and much agreed, the term had far more relation to the Franks or Frankish, and likely had origins in medieval times when the Franks were producing high quality blades such as the Ulfberth and Ingelrii. These were widely exported, though that was tried to be curbed, and it seems the term entered a good number of languages becoming indirectly a term for 'European' I believe. As always a matter of semantics.

Some years ago I had seen references which thought the term meant 'Portuguese' probably for the predominance of Portuguese colonies and trade in subcontinent and I believe in Sri Lanka.

Jens, I cannot allow you to underestimate your knowledge my friend, after all I have learned from you these many years! It is a complex question, and perhaps unfairly asked or at least posed. I know if anybody can find it though, you can, in your never ending travels through some of the most esoteric works on India.

[Jim McDougall]

Struggling through old notes, found this re: Italian blades in India

"...in 1691 we have note of an incident that throws light on the existence of so many European swords in use in India. It appears that in May of that year, Sir John Chardin, agent for the Armenian nation, presented a petition from Bogos Ariel, Davod and Zacaiia Parsijian, Armenian merchants who had contracted with the EIC of England to carry upon their ships the trade which they formerly did with Italy".

It appears that the source of the blades now to be carried are said to be from 'Nuremberg' and to the 'East Indies'. It appears that due to the restrictions in England on receiving German blades due to importing restrictions led to the dispersing of these blades into India. The Mahrathas did not think much of English blades, but very much favored German.

In the events in the Indian Ocean involving the notorious Captain Kidd, a virtual byword for 'pirate', his greatest infraction was the overtaking of a vessel in use in trade for India, and it does seem this was chartered or owned by Armenian merchants.

It would seem that much of the entry of European blades into India by this time was through trade conveyed by Armenian merchants. It would appear that these industrious merchants were instrumental in trade in a number of spheres in addition to India. The conveyance of trade blades into India, whether Italian or German, seem to have been brought in through these kinds of trades vessels by this time in the 17th century.

In the 17th century, the blade making industry in Toledo had faltered, and there was a great reliance on Germany for blades, while Italy still maintained a notable presence in producing them as well. The cross mingling of markings and spurious use of names etc. make the identification of blades to either very difficult in many cases. I am unaware of Portuguese blade producers, and had thought their blades to have been largely Solingen products, much as were the English trade venues.

The material on the Armenian conveyance:
"The Export of European Blades to India"
by Lord Dillon
in 'Archaeological Journal' Vol. LXii , p.67, 69-72

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

For some reason, I am always of the impression that Italy was not particularly involved in any sort of mass export of blades. Most of what I have seen in accounts of Italian swords are that the blade makers produced their blades, which were then sent to hilt makers (for example in Brescia etc) and the sword in entirety was then to the client or armourer.
Many swords in the Wallace collection are seen with Italian blades but German hilts, sometimes even vice versa, so perhaps these were simply remounting exchanges.

I think the most prevalent evidence for exported blades would have been the Genoan (and surrounding cities) which is suggested by the noted copy of the famed sickle marks, which are notably copied by many Indian artisans on their blades.

[Jim McDougall]

Finally got my faithful Elgood, , "Hindu Arms & Ritual",
With the notes concerning the Armenian involvement in the transport of goods including sword blades into India, it is noted this was in the latter 17th c.

As the Portuguese presence began with Vasco de Gama in 1498 at Calicut and Elgood (p.39) notes the assumption that 'European' blades were entering Vijayanagara via the Portuguese on the coast from beginning of 16th c.

It is noted further that most of the European blades appear to have been from the Iberian Peninsula or Italy, and those described are rapier blades (p.38). It is also noted that many European blades had passed into Arab and Turk hands and unknown quantities preceded the Portuguese in falling into the hands of the indigenous peoples of India.

In 1514, Pires describes TRADE GOODS SENT FROM VENICE TO INDIA INCLUDING ARMS, so this is interesting as it sounds as if this was via a Portuguese transport.

It is noted that through the 16th century Portuguese relations in Vijayanagara were good and included their supplying allies with arms.
This however seems to have changed in about 1606 when Dutch began challenging Portuguese monopoly and they were defeated by the ruler of Jaffna, with many weapons captured.
Apparently the Marathas also captured many arms from them later, by early 18th c. The Dutch began dominating trade markets and clearly the blades were by this time German.

Tavernier records weapons at Surat as long rapiers probably sold by English or Portuguese, and it seems these were 16th c. with most tending to be German, but some being Spanish and Italian.

Basically it seems that from contact and through 16th century there was a predominance of blades presumably through Portuguese sourcing, but they were not exclusively Italian, but mostly German with a number of Iberian and Italian blades.

By early 17th century, the Dutch as well as EIC became key suppliers and these were primarily German blades. While it is noted that ANDREA FERARA blades were among these, we know of course that these were produced in great number in Solingen from early to mid 17th into 18th century.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

So ... in due context, Portuguese were (also ) Firangi.

Absolutely. It all depends on the context.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks very much Victrix, and much agreed, the term had far more relation to the Franks or Frankish, and likely had origins in medieval times when the Franks were producing high quality blades such as the Ulfberth and Ingelrii. These were widely exported, though that was tried to be curbed, and it seems the term entered a good number of languages becoming indirectly a term for 'European' I believe. As always a matter of semantics.

Some years ago I had seen references which thought the term meant 'Portuguese' probably for the predominance of Portuguese colonies and trade in subcontinent and I believe in Sri Lanka.

Jens, I cannot allow you to underestimate your knowledge my friend, after all I have learned from you these many years! It is a complex question, and perhaps unfairly asked or at least posed. I know if anybody can find it though, you can, in your never ending travels through some of the most esoteric works on India.

For those who are interested in the history of the time from different view points I can highly recommend Amin Maalouf’s The Crusades through Arab Eyes [2004] which uses contemporary Arab chronicles and eye witnesses accounts of the time. From the Foreword: “These latter [contemporary Arab chroniclers] spoke not of Crusades, but of Frankish wars, or ‘the Frankish invasions’. The word designating the Franks was transcribed in many ways, according to the region, author, and period. In the various chronicles, we find Faranj, Faranjat, Ifranj, Ifranjat, and other variants. For the sake of consistency, I have chosen to use the briefest form, Franj, a word which is used in colloquial Arabic even today to designate Westeners, and the French in particular.”

Incidentally, Frankreich, the German word for France, means Land of the Franks.

[Jim McDougall]

Victrix, thank you for this excellent detail and the heads up on that title. I always am grateful when titles and source material are cited and shared as one can never have too much information on these topics.
It truly is fascinating to see how this European word permeated the languages of different spheres to denote essentially 'European' blades.

Although deviating from the key topic here of Italian marks, this term is certainly relevant as the blades carrying these marks (often Italian) are indeed termed and regarded as 'firangi' (and variant terms with the root you describe).

An associated term often seen on European blades (typically Eastern) which is often with the 'sickle' marks described and regarded as either Genoan or Styrian is FRINDIA or FRINGIA. It has really never been fully explained but some regard it as a Holy Roman acronym in a tenuous supposition.

Your earlier point about context is not only pertinent, but essential. When discussing matters involving the kinds of details we typically focus on here, they can be easily be misconstrued without proper qualification. I have learned personally, from many times being corrected, that adamant or broad statements are wide open to scrutiny and misunderstanding.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Victrix, thank you for this excellent detail and the heads up on that title. I always am grateful when titles and source material are cited and shared as one can never have too much information on these topics.
It truly is fascinating to see how this European word permeated the languages of different spheres to denote essentially 'European' blades.

Although deviating from the key topic here of Italian marks, this term is certainly relevant as the blades carrying these marks (often Italian) are indeed termed and regarded as 'firangi' (and variant terms with the root you describe).

An associated term often seen on European blades (typically Eastern) which is often with the 'sickle' marks described and regarded as either Genoan or Styrian is FRINDIA or FRINGIA. It has really never been fully explained but some regard it as a Holy Roman acronym in a tenuous supposition.

Your earlier point about context is not only pertinent, but essential. When discussing matters involving the kinds of details we typically focus on here, they can be easily be misconstrued without proper qualification. I have learned personally, from many times being corrected, that adamant or broad statements are wide open to scrutiny and misunderstanding.

Jim, I apologize for letting the thread off a tangent here but I think Fringia and its variations is the same thing as Firangi which comes from Franji. I understand Arabic is a phonetic language, it does not use the latin alphabet, the swordsmiths did not speak Arabic, and were probably at best semi-literate in their own language anyway. So the word ended up spelled in great many variations. The blades must have been intended for export to lands outside of, or at the fringes of, Europe where there were muslims. I think you are right to use the term European, rather than Western European here, as Austrians and Czechs all would probably also be regarded as Franji in Arab eyes. Fascinating to think that the trade went all the way to India with the ever enterprising Portuguese and Armenians.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Jim, I apologize for letting the thread off a tangent here but I think Fringia and its variations is the same thing as Firangi which comes from Franji. I understand Arabic is a phonetic language, it does not use the latin alphabet, the swordsmiths did not speak Arabic, and were probably at best semi-literate in their own language anyway. So the word ended up spelled in great many variations. The blades must have been intended for export to lands outside of, or at the fringes of, Europe where there were muslims. I think you are right to use the term European, rather than Western European here, as Austrians and Czechs all would probably also be regarded as Franji in Arab eyes. Fascinating to think that the trade went all the way to India with the ever enterprising Portuguese and Armenians.

While really only indirectly off tangent, it should be noted that the 'sickle marks' which are regarded as 'Genoan' and often bracket the FRINGIA word, are on occasion found with this 'mill rind' (twig, fly) marking in place of the word.
As we are looking at the use and possible origin of this mark of the OP, it is interesting that on occasion it is seen within the sickle marks which at times hold the FRINGIA word. I agree with your explanation of the similarity of Fringia and Firangi, and can see how these might be phonetically transcribed.

What is most unusual however is that on East European swords, many are found with these FRINGIA markings. Is it possible that blades intended for release to Middle Eastern trade, might have ended up used in the European context in which they were produced instead of being exported?

We see the Fringia term written, but I have yet to see any with the word Firangi or its variations. Perplexing !

Still the explanation makes perfect sense. It is good to look further into these Italian markings, and these words which sometimes appear related.

[kronckew]

foreign: outsider, from the roman foraneus, someone from outside your empire/nation.

Firengi phonetically sounds a lot like that. Portugese traders and their latin speaking priests were trading there quite early (as were the egyptians, romans etc. for ages. they likely referred to themselves as foraneus.

Fringe: another word used above. 14c old French ( ) Franki Feranki - ferengi - fringy - frenchy (etc. ad nauseum)- word from the latin for the fibrous border or edge of a woven cloth, used here as on the fringes, or beyond the fringes, ie. foreign, firengi. Japanese: Gaijin = literally an outer person, foreigner - Portugese were for a long time the only 'outsiders' allowed in Japan, again mainly Priests who spoke latin in churches to their converts.

Loaner Words get around a lot it seems. getting local vowel drift, and mis-speilingks as it wends it's way thru it's travels.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

The link mentions Polish sources suggesting Russian exports of captured Polish swords produced in Italy and Styria to the Caucasus and Central Asia. Possibly another source of these Firengi (i.e. European) blades?

http://www.antiques.com/classified/A...an-Talwar-Hilt

[fernando]

Portuguese served as the lingua franca in 15th and 16th century Africa and Asia. When the Portuguese began exploring the seas of Africa, the Americas, Asia and Oceania, they tried to communicate with the natives by mixing a version of the lingua franca (influenced by Portuguese) with the local languages. When English and French ships arrived to compete with the Portuguese, the crews sought to learn this truncated Portuguese. Through successive changes over time, the lingua franca, along with the Portuguese vocabulary, has been replaced by the language of the peoples concerned.

.

[fernando]

Have i just seen the famous mark in a sturdy XVIII century Spanish plug bayonet ?
Were the Spaniards also fond of replicating the 'ferri di molino' brand ... or has this blade made its way from Veneto to Spain; unlikely, i guess.

(Toledo Army Museum)


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