WHICH SUNDANG?

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by kai

I'm fairly sure the scabbard is a replacement done on Java/Madura. Can you narrow down it's age from craftmanship and material?
Regards,
Kai

Me too, Kai, I'm pretty sure this scabbard is a replacement, maybe much later. The craftmanship, it is more central javanese scabbard than maduran. Not too old "timoho" (kleinhovia hospita) wood... You may see the bottom of the blade too (from the picture), that the form of "sirah cecak" (bottom face of the ganja) is not typically javanese. You may compare with any javanese "sirah cecak"...

Originally Posted by rasdan

I think this method would give with different effect/result with different iron. Anyhow, thanks again for your kind explanation.

Yes, totally agree Rasdan. You must extra carefully monitor the result of ageing, time to time, in order the blade not to be totally corroded by the "kamalan".

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Here are a few questions.
1)--- what style is followed by the ricikan of this blade?
2)--- is the erosion of the greneng in harmony with the erosion shown between pamor and the steel core?
3)--- what method was used to produce the greneng?
4)--- does filler exist between the gonjo and the blade?
5)--- where do we find this particular pamor very frequently used?
6)--- why do we find this blade in a poorly made Javanese scabbard and with a pedang handle?
The answers to these questions may assist in a determination of exactly what we are looking at here.
Pity we don't have a time machine.

Thanks for guiding this discussion in positive way, Alan. All I can answer is just speculation. I think this 'sundang' is mistreated in the past, maybe by the former owner or dealer. They treated the sundang as if they treated javanese blade -- they "mutih" the blade, and soaked the blade to warangan liquid, and made the blade corroded. Most sundang I've seen in Jawa was treated like this -- corroded by kamalan, before being soaked into warangan. The mistreatment also happen in almost every Sumatran keris in Jawa -- treated like javanese blades, and being soaked into warangan...

[Alam Shah]

Interesting discussion..

Pak Ganja, the blade looks like there's some age to it but not too old.. I like the upper half on the blade, but the base area.. are a lot off. It might be in a simpler form initially before its transformation. The 'greneng' area seems like drilled holes to me.. 10 number on the greneng area and 3 numbers on the 'kembang kacang' area to form the 'jenggot'.. the gandik area seems re-worked, (to me anyway).

Alan's questions and my answers..
1) what style is followed by the ricikan of this blade?
- no idea. Not from the Northern Malay states (Terengganu, Kelantan, Pattani), not Moro, not Sulu..

2) is the erosion of the greneng in harmony with the erosion shown between pamor and the steel core?
-no, imho..

3) what method was used to produce the greneng?
- a power drill (?)..

4) does filler exist between the gonjo and the blade?
- not that I can see, (from the photos)..

5) where do we find this particular pamor very frequently used?
- hmmm.. not Moro, afaik.. for Malay sundangs, I've yet to see this form. Most Borneo sundangs, have broader width and it's blade texture are mostly similar to Moro's.. afaik.

6) why do we find this blade in a poorly made Javanese scabbard and with a pedang handle?
- good question.. fittings done in Indonesia(?).. handle mix-n-match(?)..

[ganjawulung]

Conclusion for the time being:
Commercially motivated sundang, forged of old steel, with ageing process... Made in Jawa? I will keep it, until I get a real sundang...

Thanks a lot to all, for the discussion and your sharing...

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, your conclusion may very well be correct, but lets not stop with this job of examination only half done.

Alam Shah has supplied some answers to my questions, so now I'd like to pose some more questions:-

1)--- when we see a very slim, whispy kembang kacang, what geographic locality do we usually associate that with?
when we see a very steeply angled gandik, what geographic locality do we usually associate that with?

2)--- it is impossible to tell if there is filler between the gonjo and the blade, however, there is a considerable gap between the gonjo and the blade and it is full of something; only a loupe and a needle will tell if it is filler or not.Additionally, there appears to be a gap around the pesi:- what is holding the ganja in place?

3)--- AlamShah seems to think that this could not be a Malay blade, so where else might it come from? Are we used to seeing such a gap between the tungkakan and the ganja in Moro keris?

4)--- Pak Ganja has suggested that this blade might have been made in Jawa, as a commnercial undertaking, which I assume means recently. OK--- where in Jawa? Jogja? Solo? or maybe somewhere a little further East, say the province of East Jawa?

5) --- the pamor motif is adeg siji, a single strip of pamor in the center of the blade; in keris from what geographic locality is this a reasonably common pamor?

[ganjawulung]

Dear Alan,
I've tried to watch this suspicious blade more carefully. And the whole impressions is that this blade doesn't seem completely new, although it is possible that the blade is forged from older metal material, and not todays material. That is why, my first impression to see this blade as old blade. The bending blade probably was quenched, from above the sor-soran until the tip of the blade -- it is the type of old technique of keris making. The Quenching technique ("disepuh"). (The upper blade become more corroded than the lower).

At a glance, the overall shape is as the shape of sundang. Type of "keris pedang", combination form of keris and pedang. The maker of the blade, was probably had intention to make sundang, either Melayu or Moro -- seen from the very "steeply angled gandhik". Of course, this is not the style of javanese keris making. Also the awkward form of "sirah cecak". More "sundang" style than javanese keris style...

But if you watch more carefully the details -- such as, the slim sekar kacang -- it remind me the style of older Maduran kerises (Sumolo?), with detail of "jenggot" above the sekar kacang...

Regarding the pamor of "adeg siji", or you probably regard as "sada sak ler", it could be more eastern Jawa, than central. The size of the blade, also more east jawa -- tends bigger than central jawa kerises. (Later I will post pictures for comparison, between older Maduran keris and this blade. Especially we may compare the forms of details in the sor-soran).

Commercially motivated keris? It is just IMHO...

This is just my "vague" response, as I am not an expert...

Thanks, a lot

GANJAWULUNG

[David]

Interestingly, Maurice has recently posted this sundang on the main forum with similiar greneng. Not sure where this one is from either, though Malay origin is being suggested on that thread.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11654

[ganjawulung]

Yes, interesting David,
With nine circular in the greneng section, and three in the sekar kacang part. And this picture below, just for comparing the ricikan (details) in the gandhik part -- between older Maduran keris and this suspicious sundang...

GANJAWULUNG